Just to let you know Dan it died in a Type2 Camper with standard cooling system (i.e. not Porsche fan) on 200mile journey. However in retrospec I think even a Type1 head would have done the same. They were secondhand (+200K) spruced up (but not new seats) I suppose it was gonna happen sooner or later.
Now I always buy new heads and get the headwork done by someone who knows T4's, so far no problem......
Type 1 vs. Type 4
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VW12sec67
Type 1 vs. Type 4
Whats all this about type 4 heads cracking? Are you guys talking about performance or stock? Im asking because the original engine in my 73 bus lasted 212,000 miles-I had a valve job at 180,000 but reused the original heads. A rod knock started at 211,000 but lasted another hard 1,000 before it let go. Case had never been apart. Current engine is a rebuilt 1.8 T4 stocker, with hydralic lifters and I love 'em. If the van sits for a while, they take a some time to pump up, but I have not had any problems. Realize that while this is a stocker, up[ until last year I put 25,000 very hard miles on this vehical as it was the service vehical for my plumbing business. I will be using a hipo T1 for my 67 bug but I personally feel for a heavy T2, I would never use a T1 if I could use a T4 instead, I just think it is a much longer lasting engine, at least in stock form. Have heard they are thirsty but that is not my experience, I get 17 city/23 highway. One question for you T4 guys-the engine in my bus seems to rev about as freely as if there were an anchor attached to the flywheel, is this the case with hipo T4s too?
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VW12sec67
Type 1 vs. Type 4
I meant 25,000 miles a year-I have put 160,000 on it since I got it, it now has 293,000.
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
>>>Dan, this has been covered many times.<<<
nice thread on the crappy seats that type 4's had, but there was no info on type 4 head cracking evaluation and repair.
you'd think that with all these type 4 "experts", someone would know something about head cracking.
maybe we are in denial?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
nice thread on the crappy seats that type 4's had, but there was no info on type 4 head cracking evaluation and repair.
you'd think that with all these type 4 "experts", someone would know something about head cracking.
maybe we are in denial?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
<<<Ahhh, yes! Just more typical Dan stuff!<<<
if the discussion is too technical for you, tom notch, just go into lurk mode and see what you can learn.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
if the discussion is too technical for you, tom notch, just go into lurk mode and see what you can learn.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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Tom Notch
- Moderator
- Posts: 3332
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
while you are throwing stones Dan, don't forget that the t1 has had its problems, too.
How many t1 exhaust valves have gone thru pistons?
How many t1 oil coolers have broken?
Why did VW make the t1 without a replaceable valve guide?
Why did VW make the t1 without cam bearing inserts?
Why did VW put them crappy hydralic lifters in them?
Why did VW make t1 cases without head stud inserts?
Why do you have to add a sump to a t1?
Why did VW go to a dual pressure relief case?
Why did VW put a bigger oil cooler on them?
And answer me this, if the almighty T1 is so good why did VW quit importing them before they stopped importing the T4 motor?
Yes, the T1 has had its warts, too. You may not rememder some of then, but they were there.
Now can you take your crusade to BOR and get knifed about compression issues there? Or top or bottom is the correct end to open on a bug deck lid for cooling. or what is the "correct" cal look cookie cutter car? You do seem to get on your milk crate just a bit.
PS, Dan, I'm not afraid to try something different, I like being outside the "box"
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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home
[This message has been edited by Tom Notch (edited 05-24-2001).]
How many t1 exhaust valves have gone thru pistons?
How many t1 oil coolers have broken?
Why did VW make the t1 without a replaceable valve guide?
Why did VW make the t1 without cam bearing inserts?
Why did VW put them crappy hydralic lifters in them?
Why did VW make t1 cases without head stud inserts?
Why do you have to add a sump to a t1?
Why did VW go to a dual pressure relief case?
Why did VW put a bigger oil cooler on them?
And answer me this, if the almighty T1 is so good why did VW quit importing them before they stopped importing the T4 motor?
Yes, the T1 has had its warts, too. You may not rememder some of then, but they were there.
Now can you take your crusade to BOR and get knifed about compression issues there? Or top or bottom is the correct end to open on a bug deck lid for cooling. or what is the "correct" cal look cookie cutter car? You do seem to get on your milk crate just a bit.
PS, Dan, I'm not afraid to try something different, I like being outside the "box"
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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home
[This message has been edited by Tom Notch (edited 05-24-2001).]
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Alexander
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
Dan,
you get something wrong here......
if you read carefully you will see that nobody says that T4 is the best of the best.
You are trash talking it and think the only thing on the world is a T1. You should check on your lifters or cam if they have gone flat...before you start talking about the T4 lifters. Since you read CLF search the posts on how many people had problems with the all mighty T1 cam and lifters from a special company.
We never said that the T4 is better.....you say the T4 is garbage. Like Tom said...look at the problems of the T1 first.....we might all think it might be better to drive a Honda...at least you get warranty with those if you buy them new.
I do not know everything...maybe not much but I read the CLF too and see what type of problems seems to be very frequent.
BTW...what do you drive on the street....engine?...bug?...suspension?
[This message has been edited by Alexander (edited 05-24-2001).]
you get something wrong here......
if you read carefully you will see that nobody says that T4 is the best of the best.
You are trash talking it and think the only thing on the world is a T1. You should check on your lifters or cam if they have gone flat...before you start talking about the T4 lifters. Since you read CLF search the posts on how many people had problems with the all mighty T1 cam and lifters from a special company.
We never said that the T4 is better.....you say the T4 is garbage. Like Tom said...look at the problems of the T1 first.....we might all think it might be better to drive a Honda...at least you get warranty with those if you buy them new.
I do not know everything...maybe not much but I read the CLF too and see what type of problems seems to be very frequent.
BTW...what do you drive on the street....engine?...bug?...suspension?
[This message has been edited by Alexander (edited 05-24-2001).]
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
john, don't take this discussion personally.
it's not about you.
the same thing goes for the rest of you type 4 guys; i see that tom notch has lowered himself to throwing mindless potshots from the sidelines.
>>>200+. The problem is if you run EXTENDED HP more than the cooling system can address, and that's where the T-1 is limited to 90hp,<<<
buddy, i think that this is where your confusion arises... you have created, apparently out of thin air, an arbitrary limit for the cooling capacity of the type 1.
but you have presented absolutely no facts to back up your claim.
without proof, it would be difficult to agree on what the real limit is for the type 1 cooling system, so that part of the discussion is meaningless.
>>>engine. BTW, my T-1s have never overheated since I learned the relationship of static compression and cam duration, so I have no idea where your "your engine's overheating" comment has come from. Where did you get the idea my engines overheat from? Please tell.<<<<
we have discussed your concepts of c/r and cam design on the clf; many people agree with you, but i quoted internet sources to the contrary... and i never mentioned gene berg
believe what you must.
>>>The Type 4 has more cooling capability, so it can be pushed harder and not break a sweat, more than the T-1. THAT is it's advantage (along with huge displacement)<<<
nobody disputes that... what is in dispute is the fact that the heads are overwhelmingly proven to not measure up to, or be as reliable as, the rest of the platform.
in my opinion, until the type 4 head cracking problem is solved, the entire platform isn't worth the effort and expense... especially since it is proven to not make the h.p. that the type 1 does.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
it's not about you.
the same thing goes for the rest of you type 4 guys; i see that tom notch has lowered himself to throwing mindless potshots from the sidelines.
>>>200+. The problem is if you run EXTENDED HP more than the cooling system can address, and that's where the T-1 is limited to 90hp,<<<
buddy, i think that this is where your confusion arises... you have created, apparently out of thin air, an arbitrary limit for the cooling capacity of the type 1.
but you have presented absolutely no facts to back up your claim.
without proof, it would be difficult to agree on what the real limit is for the type 1 cooling system, so that part of the discussion is meaningless.
>>>engine. BTW, my T-1s have never overheated since I learned the relationship of static compression and cam duration, so I have no idea where your "your engine's overheating" comment has come from. Where did you get the idea my engines overheat from? Please tell.<<<<
we have discussed your concepts of c/r and cam design on the clf; many people agree with you, but i quoted internet sources to the contrary... and i never mentioned gene berg
believe what you must.>>>The Type 4 has more cooling capability, so it can be pushed harder and not break a sweat, more than the T-1. THAT is it's advantage (along with huge displacement)<<<
nobody disputes that... what is in dispute is the fact that the heads are overwhelmingly proven to not measure up to, or be as reliable as, the rest of the platform.
in my opinion, until the type 4 head cracking problem is solved, the entire platform isn't worth the effort and expense... especially since it is proven to not make the h.p. that the type 1 does.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
>>>Yes, the T1 has had its warts, too. You may not rememder some of then, but they were there<<<
o.k., so you quoted some evolutionary points along the type 1 timeline.
what does that prove, and what does it have to do with the lousy type 4 head design?
>>>a bug deck lid for cooling. or what is the "correct" cal look cookie cutter car?<<<
i could care less about what makes up the "proper" cal look car, so stop making up bogus crap.
>>>PS, Dan, I'm not afraid to try something different, I like being outside the "box"<<<
p.s. tom, my daily driver street car is type 1 turbocharged... how about you?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
o.k., so you quoted some evolutionary points along the type 1 timeline.
what does that prove, and what does it have to do with the lousy type 4 head design?
>>>a bug deck lid for cooling. or what is the "correct" cal look cookie cutter car?<<<
i could care less about what makes up the "proper" cal look car, so stop making up bogus crap.
>>>PS, Dan, I'm not afraid to try something different, I like being outside the "box"<<<
p.s. tom, my daily driver street car is type 1 turbocharged... how about you?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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Tom Notch
- Moderator
- Posts: 3332
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
Dan, you can see some of my stuff on my site. And I do remember you slamming me and a few others about the deck lid thing on the old clf. I also remember your slam against my 69 efi Berg 2161 T1 as not being a callook car (and I never said it was, its just my bug I've had for 24 years). Yes, you do grandstand your ideas and ignore others and raise some hard feelings,imho.
What really amazes me about your constant bagering on this forum is you have managed to generate 25% of the posts on this drag race forum about an engine that nobody ever said was a drag race motor. One thread had to be deleted it got so bad. What's up with that? You say you just want to know how to make a t4 head live but you have also stated that your head gurus can't. What's up with that? I don't think you want that info , I feel you just want to be a pushy person hiding behind a keyboard. Do you really need this bad image of yourself to be spread around the world? I feel that you have shown a very bad side of yourself to a lot of people here. I'm sure a lot of these people on this forum will never think of you in a good light again. Glad you showed your true colors before I bought the video from you that I have a cameo in.
Sorry everybody but this is just my opinion of Dan and I would have just emailed it to him, one on one, but he apparently doesn't want that to happen.
Peace, Dan, may you enjoy your life.
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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home
What really amazes me about your constant bagering on this forum is you have managed to generate 25% of the posts on this drag race forum about an engine that nobody ever said was a drag race motor. One thread had to be deleted it got so bad. What's up with that? You say you just want to know how to make a t4 head live but you have also stated that your head gurus can't. What's up with that? I don't think you want that info , I feel you just want to be a pushy person hiding behind a keyboard. Do you really need this bad image of yourself to be spread around the world? I feel that you have shown a very bad side of yourself to a lot of people here. I'm sure a lot of these people on this forum will never think of you in a good light again. Glad you showed your true colors before I bought the video from you that I have a cameo in.
Sorry everybody but this is just my opinion of Dan and I would have just emailed it to him, one on one, but he apparently doesn't want that to happen.
Peace, Dan, may you enjoy your life.
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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home
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JohnConnolly
- Posts: 3336
- Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
"buddy, i think that this is where your confusion arises... you have created, apparently out of thin air, an arbitrary limit for the cooling capacity of the type 1.
but you have presented absolutely no facts to back up your claim.
without proof, it would be difficult to agree on what the real limit is for the type 1 cooling system, so that part of the discussion is meaningless."
How about this; What is the rated output for a dual port doghouse T-1 engine? What is the rated output of a 2.0L T-4 engine? Do you think that VW designed BOTH engines with the same cooling capacity, even though the T-4 engine was rated at 50% more power?
Of course not. If you hold a type 1 head in one hand, and a T-4 head in the other, the cooling capability of each one is very clear.
my hp #s are not "arbitrary". I have learned this stuff from 15 years of experience. Blowing stuff up early on, and finding out what worked and what didn't.
You can push a type 4 motor with more power output for an extended time than you can a type 1, PERIOD. The T-1 has more power potential, but it's only usable in short bursts (stoplight racing, etc), where it DOES beat the type 4. However, you run those two applications on an extended high speed run, and the type 1 will burn up while the type 4 is just starting to warm up (not even breaking a sweat). If type 1s are so great, why doesn't FAT use them on their unlimited class cars? I'm not being a wise ass, I'm sincerely asking a question.
I think you are too emotional about this subject, and can't see what's sitting right in front of you.
Want proof? Take a type 1 engine and a type 4 engine that can put out over 150hp. Put then on a dyno, and run them at 140hp for a couple hours straight. do the Type 4 first, do you don't have to work around all the shrapnel of the type 1 after 1/2 hour.
John
[This message has been edited by JohnConnolly (edited 05-24-2001).]
but you have presented absolutely no facts to back up your claim.
without proof, it would be difficult to agree on what the real limit is for the type 1 cooling system, so that part of the discussion is meaningless."
How about this; What is the rated output for a dual port doghouse T-1 engine? What is the rated output of a 2.0L T-4 engine? Do you think that VW designed BOTH engines with the same cooling capacity, even though the T-4 engine was rated at 50% more power?
Of course not. If you hold a type 1 head in one hand, and a T-4 head in the other, the cooling capability of each one is very clear.
my hp #s are not "arbitrary". I have learned this stuff from 15 years of experience. Blowing stuff up early on, and finding out what worked and what didn't.
You can push a type 4 motor with more power output for an extended time than you can a type 1, PERIOD. The T-1 has more power potential, but it's only usable in short bursts (stoplight racing, etc), where it DOES beat the type 4. However, you run those two applications on an extended high speed run, and the type 1 will burn up while the type 4 is just starting to warm up (not even breaking a sweat). If type 1s are so great, why doesn't FAT use them on their unlimited class cars? I'm not being a wise ass, I'm sincerely asking a question.
I think you are too emotional about this subject, and can't see what's sitting right in front of you.
Want proof? Take a type 1 engine and a type 4 engine that can put out over 150hp. Put then on a dyno, and run them at 140hp for a couple hours straight. do the Type 4 first, do you don't have to work around all the shrapnel of the type 1 after 1/2 hour.
John
[This message has been edited by JohnConnolly (edited 05-24-2001).]
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GodofAtheism
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
I was wanting to get the opinion of the other mods on this, but I think this topic is getting out of hand again. I really think that it needs to be closed for the time being and any others that pop up along these same lines. I hate to censor, but I really do believe everything that needs to be said has been
Peter
Peter
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Darryl
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 1:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
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[This message has been edited by Darryl (edited 05-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Darryl (edited 05-29-2001).]
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Aircooledbreeze
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
This may seem obvious.....but.....
Ocean Street Video=commercial bidness, which is focused around t1 performance. Video needs big show, noise and smoke. the explosive power of t1 is perfect for this. Don't forget sex appeal (nice stripper vid Dan)
What adds up is, t4 threatens to siphon off enthusiasts from t1, which negates Dan's investment in t1 videos. No big deal, simply the same tactics that are being used in so many commercial ventures. BTW don't delete or close this thread. Watch, It'll wear out on it's on.
Ocean Street Video=commercial bidness, which is focused around t1 performance. Video needs big show, noise and smoke. the explosive power of t1 is perfect for this. Don't forget sex appeal (nice stripper vid Dan)
What adds up is, t4 threatens to siphon off enthusiasts from t1, which negates Dan's investment in t1 videos. No big deal, simply the same tactics that are being used in so many commercial ventures. BTW don't delete or close this thread. Watch, It'll wear out on it's on.
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Darryl
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 1:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
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[This message has been edited by Darryl (edited 05-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Darryl (edited 05-29-2001).]