2316 longevity

jujubug · Post by **jujubug** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 12:22 am

A lot of us have built engines as part of our hobby, how many of us have built and tested countless versions of several different engine sizes? That info is golden for even the most experienced of us. And I'm not talking about some VW guru philosophy BS. Your web site can provide results from much testing. Its not a pilosophy anymore when you have test results, just fact. People can take it or leave it. I say this because I know how you are about the guru thing. Test results kinda speak for itself.

Speaking as a chemist/scientist, this is what I like about Jake and his philosophies. Apply your knowledge, build on what you apply, then test it, tweek it, test it, tweek it some more, test it, and so on. Jake has taken a philosophy filled industry to a new level of facts and figures. I know of at least one engine builder / scientist / artist that has forged a way for all of us to get the most out of our dubs. personally, I'm not there yet, but hope to be soon. I'll e-mail you and we can talk real soon Jake. I'm looking forward to your new web site and will drop you a line once I digest any new info you put on there. PEACE

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:59 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Plastermaster wrote:Nice install Zen! I hope to see a full report on that bad dog in the next month.

I plugged the chart into Baja wes's accelleration worksheet and see you in the 12's and 0-60 in about 5 secs. Not only that you can drive it 500 miles to the track and back in one day.

Thanks for the pic
Ron
thanks. i have the Hyfire, coil and breather in now. i obviously still have some wiring work to do then and still.

that is good acceleration info. i wondered where i might end up. what vehicle weight do those numbers take into account? i am guessing that i will be in the 1700lbs area. i have a taller 3rd and 4th, but wouldn't see those before 60 anyway. i would in the 1/4 though.

I plugged in 840 Kgs (2133#) That is me pretending YOUR engine is in MY Ghia with ME in it.

Also I gave it stock gearing for newer dubs. After entering the info I checked out the traction graph and found 1st gear is pretty much all wheel spin with 80% weight on the rear wheels durring acceleration. In your case the weight will be less and probably 99% on the rear wheels.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:13 am

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:The only way to go is to talk to me directly on the phone. The website is not capable of designing the engine that you need for your application- But I am, and do it everyday.

I'm not looking for a Web site to help me design an engine as such -- heck, I don't even pretend to know that much. Side-by-side comparisons in a chart as you described you and Tuna doing in the future would be useful for someone like me to ascertain the positives and the comparative negatives of each design.

I realize putting together a chart with thirty 2270s and seven 2316s would be impractical. Add to that the fact no two 2563s are alike, a complete chart would be that much closer to being impossible to make.

I also realize talking to you is ultimately necessary.

I don't think, however, I am going to be an easy person to nail down. This is because I want everything. My project will be a true daily driver. Hopefully, it will be my last daily driver, too -- and not because I'm planning on dying any time soon.

Therefore, longevity is very important. (That's why I was drawn to this thread in the first place.) I had a Jetta for 16 years that gave me more than a quarter million miles. This is not a measuring stick, but an illustration that even though I may not know much about drivetrains and such, I do know how to take care of them. I'm very fussy with our daily drivers and our "specialty" cars.

Miles per gallon are going to be important, too. While I don't expect to get the TDI mileage my wife gets, I don't want 14/20 (city/hwy) of my EuroVan either.

Then, there's the issue of performance. Throwing out magical numbers for horsepower and torque sounds nice -- especially as those numbers get larger and larger -- the truth is I'm not sure what numbers would make me happy in a Super Beetle.

I'm the type of driver who seldom drives within the speed limit. I'm also the type who rarely gets pulled over so I am not the most aggressive driver there is. There are times when aggressive acceleration will be mandatory -- and not just the proverbial 0-60, but the 35-80 as well. There will be times when I need to drive I-95. I want to be able to do 90 mph effortlessly. How that translates to my ideal top speed, I don't know.

I recognize there will be a relationship between mph and mpg whether we are talking actual driving or an engine design's potential.

Once the platform for my project is selected, the plan is to have Kustom Coach Werks perform the necessary refurbishment and assembly. The goal is to have the Super Beetle effectively be a brand new car. Heck, I'm budgeting brand new car dollars for it. And although I have no plans in entering the car into any beauty contests, I will want it to have a certain wow factor when I attend shows. This wow factor should include the engine.

From what I can gather from your Web site and other posts on this thread, the 2316 is generally an aggressive engine with a shorter lifespan. This may leave a choice between a 2563 and a 2270 "C" which is possibly supercharged. (I am assuming your "B" transaxle is the route to go for a five-speed.)

This is where a chart would be handy. Am I going to get 175 hp and lb-ft with 22/32 mpg with one design, and 200 with 20/28 with another? Is one design going to give me twice the longevity? Is one design going to cost $4000 more than the other? I presume either powerplant would take nine to twelve months to build once the parameters are set and the down payment is made.

Any response is fine. No response is fine, too. I'm just babbling to emphasize my desire for the chart you mentioned -- not as a replacement to talking to you, but as a useful supplement.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:47 am

I could never post all the charts in my files... I have over 2,000 files with data and plots for TIV engines!

Seriously, it takes much less time when we talk. The charts can't show what I have memorized about the combinations, their strengths and weaknesses, or their ability to do certain tasks. I have designed every engine I have ever built, and dynoed.... That helps. Some combos never get used again, some slightly tweeked for another application.

I have never been unsuccessful at designing an engine. One instance is with Crimson Axes engine. His was an exceptional project plagued with parts failures. He told me what he wanted, and it took me almost 3 years to deliver that. He got exactly what he wanted. His desires were to cruise at 90MPH, so I designed the gearbox, and engine to do that. His car runs 90MPH in fifth with head temps of 250 degrees and oil at 180, and was getting 30MPG when it left my shop! The powerband is never ending and basically has 4 different levels where power increses are noticeable.

I can design the engine, build it, test it and prove it- No sweat. I do it everyday. Some are more difficult than others. Daily drivers are the hardest, especially high HP ones.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:15 pm

Oasis, being hard to nail down is why it is invaluable to discuss the project with jake. (Which I read you plan to do) Speaking for myself, I know enough about what I'm doing to be dangerous. I want this and I want that, and have alot of info that I really can't put into perspective. If I built, Dynoed, and drove enough different engines and gear combos it would be different, but that is not the case. I look forward to the charts too. I"m sure they will provide hours of entertainment,

but probably not make me better equiped to decide what's best for my ultimate satisfaction. by the way, I'm just blabbin too.

Ron

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:18 am

Fair enough. Thanks, both!

(Three years, though? Sounds like this will be the last part of the plan and I better have a 1584 or a 1776 to get me through the last couple of years or so.)

powerzen · Post by **powerzen** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 6:58 am

oasis wrote:Fair enough. Thanks, both!

(Three years, though? Sounds like this will be the last part of the plan and I better have a 1584 or a 1776 to get me through the last couple of years or so.)

that's the exception, not the rule. mine was the first 2316 for a bug (had only minor modifications from the 914 versioni) and from order to delivery was less than 2 months i believe.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:29 am

We are more efficient here than I used to be... Now most lead times are 4 months. I have increased my inventory and added a couple of extra hands to help the process along a bit...

Some big engines (super heros) take well over a year. I have one now that we are working on and finishing up that took 18 months.... BUT 1/2 of the parts totally have to be custom made.

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Sat May 22, 2004 6:13 pm

Matt, i guess when you get an engine like that, the tranny will have to say hello to a new one for sure! LOL I wonder what gear rations with such an engine will work best for quick pick up and cruising at high speeds.

A longer secon and third wouldn't be too bad to use the powerband more, and a taller 4th for sure. Then there's always a built 5spd. Oh, if only I had the cash..

Jake, between Perso's and your comments I may get a 2316 for the Ghia within a year or so. Right now still learning all of this.

E