Do u think anyone will know?

Jak Rizzo · Post by **Jak Rizzo** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:35 am

My exhaust definantly doesn't take up that much room, I've made mine out of 2.5 inch mandrel bends, the reason I made mine so tight is cabin heat, the heat put out by the engine alone is much more than my 2275cc vw engine, especially form the side that the turbo is on. I'll be ceramic coating my exhaust & wrapping it in thermo tech heat wrap before I get onto the track. I also ran all my wiring down the other side to keep away from the heat of the turbo.
I'm also running the standard starter motor, it doesn't even think twice about kicking the wrx motor over.
regards
Jak

yllwveedub · Post by **yllwveedub** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:49 am

Would it be possible to post some pics of your exhaust? This is one thing that I wasn't sure what the best way to do it is. Mine is also 2.5" and made from madrel bends and will be wrapped in header wrap. I have a box that sits over that hole in the parcel tray, when in place the wiring runs along the top of that. The wires end up being about twice as far as they are in that picture from the exhaust (It puts the wiring in a very similar position as to where it was on the stock car). Since I'm running an 091 tranny a stock beetle starter isn't an option, I actually got that starter (gear reduction from Kenedy) off ebay brand new for less than a vanagan starter would cost me.

As for the intercoolers, keep in mind the US spec cars are defferent. We could not get a Forester with a turbo untill 2005; unless you are taking about the Jeep product, there is no such thing as a US spec liberty. And as fas as I know we have never gotten a subaru with an air to water. There are air to water intercoolers off Subaru products on ebay fairly often, but I have yet to see a complete setup with pump and heat exchanger. So, getting one isn't as easy as you make it out to be.

~Josh

Flintstones · Post by **Flintstones** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:07 pm

Jak, sounds like a whole-lotta-fun!!!
Now you definately got to take me for a ride!!!! (which you still owe me

)

I'ld be interested to hear your experiences on the next race meet, looking forward to the comparisions between the 2 different setups.

Are you going to do a write up in the next VMA about it?

Cheers

jakriz · Post by **jakriz** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:02 pm

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/188784.jpg

Josh, I've found one pic from when I first made the exhaust, u can see how tight I have made it come around, this also helps as I have one of the radiators for the intercooler bolted ot the underside of the parcel tray near the exhaust, this will become the oil cooler as I'm moving the radiator for the intercooler up to the front.
The way that u have made the 'split' section for the wastegate is excellent, I have spoken to an engineer that builds wrx engines & thats exactly what he does, he has found great gains in tourqe with that modification to the exhaust flange coming off the turbo. I'll do that later on when I get used to (if ever) the power. I'm still running the minimum boost , 7.5psi off the wastegate, my motor came standard running 14psi from the factory. My car wieghs 980kg (2160lb) & it's pretty bloody quick.
As for the intercooler, I still think that u should still be able to get one, they are everywhere over here as nobody wants them, they all go to front mount air to air intercoolers. Here are some pics of a guy called Barry, I've also lost his email when my computer crashed, he helped me out with lots of questions before I did my conversion, as u can see he hasn't moved his motor & gearbox forward. He has a water to air intercooler & I'm pretty sure he is in the States. Hopefully he will read this & contact u.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/188791.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/188799.jpg

Dino,
U will have to take a number & get in line for a ride, I must warn u though, everyone so far that has been for a ride is now doing the conversion, u might want to sell that 2.7 type 4!
The editor of VWMA wasn't really that interested in doing a feature on the car, but I will still be writing about CT & I racing with the Porsche club this year.
regards
Jak

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/188800.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/188801.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/188802.jpg

It looks a little ratty, but once it's ceramic coated & wrapped it will be a little nicer.

DORIGTT · Post by **DORIGTT** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:43 pm

Hey Jak,

What steps are you taking to make it more driveable? It sounds like there's a bit of lag in the powerband that you are working/driving around. Do you think that with more time spent on the fuel/ignition mapping and maybe freeing up that exhaust that lag will be minimized?

Hey! How about just running the WRC style anti-lag setup! That'll take care of any annoying lag...or people standing behind you

jakriz · Post by **jakriz** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:58 pm

Quite the opposite, I don't think the lag is a problem at all. With the larger TD05 turbo that I have I can drive around town all day off boost. It actually feels just as good if not a little tourqier than my 2275cc. I'm having the car tuned next week, so I'll let u know how it goes. The other benefit of the TD05 is that the top end power just feels endless! I can also install a boost controller in the vacuum line off the wastegate to bring boost on a little earlier & smoother, but I will see if is needed after the tune next week. Then onto the dyno for a final Hp & Torque figure.
The microtech computer that I am running also has a boost limiter on it as well.
regards
Jak

yllwveedub · Post by **yllwveedub** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:47 pm

The only problem with the way you have your exhaust run is that you wouldn't be able to run the "split" section that I have in mine. If you look at where the exhaust gasses go when your waste gate opens they just slam right into that plate = horrible flow. The only reason I can think that Subaru designed it like this is to make the car feel faster. It makes the car more laggy and you can feel the boost come on more in a surging fashion. If you ever drove a WRX before and after an aftermarket down pipe instal (or took a class or two in fluids/flow) you would not have done your exhaust that way. Ideally the wastegate gasses would never merge with the rest of the exhaust, but if it does the farther from the turbo and the smother the transition the better.

With that said I'm not convinced my way is very good either. I will have much better flow, but I don't really like the idea of wrapping around the axle like it is. My muffler will end up exactly where yours is.

Exactly how close did your exhaust piping end up being to the CV boot and the inside of the rear tire? These were the two things I was worried about with heat. It looks like your setup is just as close to the CV boot and a little closer to tire than mine, so I'm hoping if you don't have problems I won't either.

It is amazing how much of a difference a little tuning can make. If you don't have much experience tuning and you have someone who knows what they are doing tune, you will love your car even more after! If your ECU can run a wastegate control solenoid I wouldn't bother with a manual boost controler. If will be way more accurate having the ecu control it. You can't actually have boost come on earlier with the manual boost control, it will just allow you to conrtol the point where the wastegate begins to actuate (how much boost you are running).

As for intercoolers this is about the best price I've seen

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... eName=WDVW

no way a stock intercooler with out the pump or heat exchanger is worth $150. I will keep looking though.

~Josh

yllwveedub · Post by **yllwveedub** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:09 pm

Hey! How about just running the WRC style anti-lag setup! That'll take care of any annoying lag...or people standing behind you icon_lol.gif

HAHA... and roast his turbo in like 2k miles. Ever wonder why those guys put a new turbo on like every other race? If you ECU has the capabilities what is fun is setting up a drag style anti lag. Basically you tell the ECU when your not moving (or moving very slowly), your clutch is depressed (you would have to rig up a clutch switch), and you are above a certain throttle position (say 50-60%) you have the ECU retard timing by 10-20 degrees. This allows unburned gas to enter the exhaust manifold where it is supper hot. These gasses combust building up pressure in the maanifold and spooling the turbo. I wonder how high you could get the front wheels of the ground??? This would also work better if the ECU has the capability to have a multi stage rev limiter. Just a thought; (All of the DSM guys I live with are running setups like this, it gives them some pretty sick 60' times).

~Josh

DORIGTT · Post by **DORIGTT** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:26 pm

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:09 am Post subject:
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Quote:

HAHA... and roast his turbo in like 2k miles.

SHHH! DAMMIT! Aww man! You had to open your big mouth didn't you!

I only meant to use the anti-lag during a launch or during track events...turbos are cheap

jakriz · Post by **jakriz** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:29 pm

I agree with u totally with the wastegate opening & the gases slamming straight into a wall, I think I will be able to make a split section like yours , it just won't be as merged, but will still make a huge difference ot flow. I think your exhaust will be sweet. Remember , thats how it comes straight from the factory.

As for the boost control, I have quoted some of the guys here in Australia straight off the rexxy website forums, unfortunantly some of those guys don't even know how to change their own oil (I"m not joking) letalone know about flow, boost etc.

regards
Jak

yllwveedub · Post by **yllwveedub** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:54 pm

I think I will be able to make a split section like yours , it just won't be as merged, but will still make a huge difference ot flow

I completely agree, anything is better than the way it came from the factory. If you used a 90 deg. bend with a little straight section at the end you could have it merge fairly well. Keep in mind that my 2.5" for the wastegate side is way overkill (I used it because I had extra 2.5" laying around and the verticle mill was already set up to mill a 2.5" hole, so I just milled two when I was modifying the flange), you could easily use 1.5" for that part and be fine. To be honest I've been thinking about re-designing mine since I have seen how you ran yours. The flow still woudn't be as good, but wrapping around the axle kinda sketches me out. I'll guess I se how it works for now.

As for the Subaru guys, I think some poeple just post things to make me laugh. I have read some posts that are so dumb it makes my head hurt on NASIOC.

~Josh

SLOW1303 · Post by **SLOW1303** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:08 am

jakriz wrote:I am using the box that I had with my 2275cc, it was only rebuilt a year ago but has a 1.58 3rd & a 1.04 4th, I'll change this later on to an L-bug (1303) with the taller gears, but for now it's fine.
The wing has been removed, it's for sale & will probaly have a new owner soon, it's been on the car for 6 years now so it makes a nice change.

The ecu I'm running is a Microtech http://www.microtech-efi.com/product/9.html made in Australia, it was really simple to wire it, it has boost control, 2 rev limitors, hard & soft, thermo fan control, pretty much does everything but drive the car for me! I can also tune it all with my laptop. I'm also getting the dash display as well. http://www.microtech-efi.com/product/2.html

regards
Jak

Jak ,
i thought your and CT's gbox was a swing axle converted to IRS?
the swing axles(1300) have 1.32 3rd and 0.89 4th. If it had the gears you quoted it would be revving it's tits off with the 4.375 R & P

PS Interesting you found it so simple to wire in when you can't speak from experience..... and the lap top? Who are you trying to rev up?

SLOW1303 · Post by **SLOW1303** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:18 am

yllwveedub wrote:
Hey! How about just running the WRC style anti-lag setup! That'll take care of any annoying lag...or people standing behind you icon_lol.gif
HAHA... and roast his turbo in like 2k miles. Ever wonder why those guys put a new turbo on like every other race? If you ECU has the capabilities what is fun is setting up a drag style anti lag. Basically you tell the ECU when your not moving (or moving very slowly), your clutch is depressed (you would have to rig up a clutch switch), and you are above a certain throttle position (say 50-60%) you have the ECU retard timing by 10-20 degrees. This allows unburned gas to enter the exhaust manifold where it is supper hot. These gasses combust building up pressure in the maanifold and spooling the turbo. I wonder how high you could get the front wheels of the ground??? This would also work better if the ECU has the capability to have a multi stage rev limiter. Just a thought; (All of the DSM guys I live with are running setups like this, it gives them some pretty sick 60' times).

~Josh

Ralliart in Australia made a kit fo the evo VI Lancer using a modified EGR valve that allowed air to enter the exuast pre turbo , so when the ECU retarded the timing the additional fuel (and Air)really went off with a bang!
Without additional air to mix with the fuel the Anti Lag function wouldn't do much except create a massive amount of heat and totally f@#k the Turbo.

yllwveedub · Post by **yllwveedub** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:41 am

Ralliart in Australia made a kit fo the evo VI Lancer using a modified EGR valve that allowed air to enter the exuast pre turbo , so when the ECU retarded the timing the additional fuel (and Air)really went off with a bang!
Without additional air to mix with the fuel the Anti Lag function wouldn't do much except create a massive amount of heat and totally f@#k the Turbo.

You are correct that adding more air to the mixture will creat more pressure. The setup you are describing is what I would consider rally style. With the setup I described will not let a huge amount of fuel by. The idea is to get the turbo starting to spool off the line, not trying to get full boost. What you are describing is designed to keep the turbo at full boost when you are off the gas (like when you are shifting). Any form of antilag will be harsh on the turbo, but having a combustion as you describe in the manifold will fry the turbo way before the one I described. From experience running the system I described it effectively builds around 6-8 psi by retarding 10-12 deg. on a stock dsm 14b turbo (which approximatly the same size as a stock wrx turbo). One of my roomates has been running the system for over a year, the turbo is still going strong (keep in mind this is a system for ocasional use only, not for every stop light).

~Josh

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:43 am

Paul, Our gear boxes are 1300 "twinport" model boxes, 1.58 third, 1.04 fourth & I'm using the 4.2 diff & yes, it was revving it's tits off.

As for the wiring, u kept insisting that u wanted no-one to to know u helped me with it. If u want credit I have no problem giving it. & the laptop, the Microtech program is loaded & Scott from ForDrive is tuning it next Tuesday, who's revving who up?
Take care
Jak