Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

[Wally]

Yep, afaik its every year like this, but your car must qualify by some technical rules. Having a cage is the most difficult one for most. Thats one of the main reasons why I build a cage last winter

[fastback]

nice.
yes i have a good rollcage and a splitbus that eagers to do some circle track racing.

[r_towle]

Wow,
I read this from the beginning and you gave me alot of confidence to proceed forward with my latest project.
I wish we had such a strong group of racers over here using beetles...great video seeing all those cars built to that level of competition.

I have a few questions.
Where do you get DTA, and which version would you suggest for a 2.0 liter up to a 2.4 liter turbo?

What have you done to the suspension, brakes etc...your car stays nice and flat and it really hooked up nicely at the drag strip.

Rich

[type3]

Brilliant video.

[Wally]

Wow,
I read this from the beginning and you gave me alot of confidence to proceed forward with my latest project.
I wish we had such a strong group of racers over here using beetles...great video seeing all those cars built to that level of competition.

I have a few questions.
Where do you get DTA, and which version would you suggest for a 2.0 liter up to a 2.4 liter turbo?

What have you done to the suspension, brakes etc...your car stays nice and flat and it really hooked up nicely at the drag strip.

Rich

Hi Rich,

Could it be that we spoke with each other last weekend at Santa Pod?

Wrt the video: yes, its a great group of beetles, but mind you that it is/was VERY exceptional that they were almost all there.
The group is actually still very small.

DTA is available world-wide from dealers. I dunno where you from, but suspect england? Then Paul Hamilton from VWSpeedshop.co.uk is an experienced aircooled-DTA reseller who can help you with settings and sensors (aircooled is diff then watercooled in this respect).
I got mine from a local reseller (www.hrengineering.nl). I run S60 which has elaborate datalog and 4 coil drivers for twin spark. S40 has closed loop fuel as well and less datalog and 2 coil drivers for wasted spark only. S40 is enough in most cases and costs a lot less.
Its always down to you what priorities you want to make.

Suspension and brakes is are very custom like used/remachined carbon/ceramic (front only) disks. It would take too much writing to describe the rest with why it was chosen, but lots of second-hand porsche parts all mixed together with an EMPI 1303 master brake cylinder in 20.2/20.2mm size (seriously though, it works for me atm)

Did a 11.62 @ 119.8 mph last weekend at Santa Pod and made a wheelie with the heavy fat chick 1303

[type3]

Great news on the P.B. Walter.

[r_towle]

Wally,

A bit more info please.
I live in Massachusetts, USA so we would not have met at Santa Pod...though I would have loved to have seen you make your passes.

On the DTA, can you give me the model number, I want to make sure I start talking about the right one.
On the Data logging, is there an external output for that so I might be able to log to a disk, or a flash card?

Suspension....
If we leave the brakes alone, what are you doing for front and rear suspension? I have run 914's for a while and I have built quite a few cars that handle nice and flat...you car is impressive how it stays down on the track.

Front suspension? did you replace the torsion setup with a coil over setup? If so, did you brace the front sheet metal to take that load?
Custom or is there some kit?

Rear, I figure if you went to 944 trailing arms...larger torsions and a good set of shocks, you are set....but please explain.

I am looking for the bar numbers, shock numbers etc....
That car hooks up so well on the drag strip...just curios.

Remember that copying someone is a big form of flattery.
I have a 2.0 liter type 4 on my engine stand right now and I have a case bored out for 103mm jugs in waiting.
I am very interested in following along...still debating on that larger motor if I should stroke it, go with 66mm, 71,, or larger.
You are having some amazing results with the short stroke....

Rich

[Wally]

Great news on the P.B. Walter.

Thanks m8!

Rich,
So many q's
Short version:

Front:
Its a superbeetle (1303) so it has no torsion up front, but Mc Pherson strut suspension as stock already
I run coil-overs at the front though (AVO) with 300 lbs springs, bought/made through LAperformance.co.uk. Top sferical strut bearings in alu plates welded in as far to the back as possible to gain extra caster.
Front bushings and heavy sway bar all from Topline with caster+ on the torsion bar brackets.
Axle/spindle is from a 944T-Cup (M030 option) with 996 front calipers on 996 GT2 (rears) carbon-ceramic (350x28mm) disks.
Stronger steering rods (much wider cause of the M030 spindles) made by Lanner from Canada. I have a '75'er model, so steering is a stock rack & pinion. Upgrades/added a Bilstein steering damper (not stock on rack&pinion cars) from Gerd Weiser (gwd-weiser.de).
I also run a 21mm spacer with the 7,5Jx18 ET50 porsche-BBS wheels. Semi-slick tires 225-40-18 on the circuit.

Rear:
944 Turbo (wide) trailing arms with uni-balls, the stock 944turbo 299x24mm disks and Boxster 2.5 front calipers.
Bilstein gas damper (too long actually), 25.5mm (also 944 M030) rear torsion bars.
Next upgrade will be coil-over the rear too (and maybe even stiffer front springs) as I think myself that the suspension isn't firm enough yet. Still rather comfy to drive long distances in though.
Rear sway bar from whiteline 24mm.
9Jx18 with 245/35/19 and a semi-slick tire.

Brake pedal has mechanical booster, there is a line lock and a rear brake balance handle as well (latter I don't even use).
Front and rear braided brake lines.

From a parts/labor point of view, I wouldn't advise to just copy it, now you know why... and I am myself still updating/fine-tuning the set-up constantly, so...

The 66mm stroke was neccesary cause I broke a piece of the bottom of the alu barrels when a rod broke of my former 2.7...so we had only bcylinder length left for a short stroke otherwise I would have used a 100mm bore and a bit more stroke. Still, this works too obviously

[r_towle]

Thanks for that.

On your front setup, before you upgrade to new springs, consider an externally adjustable strut instead.
Fine tuning with springs is tough, with a Fox Shox or even Koni's you have a great ride to the track and a stiff setup with a turn of the dial.
I have Konis in a 914....a wonderful setup really.....dont know if you can find them for the super...
I think you can get into the fox shox for the VW rabbit (golf) that fit the super...not sure.
Its an odd duck for sure.

You have done a great job with your suspension from the few track videos I saw...a bit more rear stiffness may be all you need. Its wierd...stiffen up the rear and the front gets stiffer...

For the motor...it may have been just a set of circumstances that landed you on that combo, but from the numbers I see, its the right setup for a turbo.
I suspect if you had a longer stroke, you would loose some power coming out of the corners due to the engine not being revved as much...
Just fun to watch you R&D....really great.

So, my main set of questions would really focus on the DTA.
Is there a product number (there are a few on the site) that you are using?
Is there some sort of interface (pc based) or some way a DIY can tune it?
Would you share your mapping for the stock 2.0 liter with me when the time comes? I would like a good place to start...

RIch

[Wally]

I have a few questions.
Where do you get DTA, and which version would you suggest for a 2.0 liter up to a 2.4 liter turbo?

Rich

Hi Rich,

DTA is available world-wide from dealers. ....Paul Hamilton from VWSpeedshop.co.uk is an experienced aircooled-DTA reseller who can help you with settings and sensors (aircooled is diff then watercooled in this respect).

I run S60 which has elaborate datalog and 4 coil drivers for twin spark. S40 has closed loop fuel as well and less datalog and 2 coil drivers for wasted spark only. S40 is enough in most cases and costs a lot less.

Rich,
I thought I already gave you that info wrt model numbers? (see above).
For the record: I run the S60 (S60pro to be exact) model in wasted spark mode.

I usually am willing to help another type 4 turbo enthousiast with specific q's, but wrt tuning an aircooled turbo engine by supplying a map, I usually don't do that for liability reasons. Even if people pledge they won't blame me for any mishaps, I would still feel bad and would wondered 'what if'.. Thats why I recommend getting one from like VWspeedshop as he will get you going and give you a good start-up map for it and get help with tuning q's.
DTA is from england anyways (http://www.dtafast.co.uk), so prices won't be that different in the end. You both speak english, so call him and get a decent advise. I am a DIY guy too and tune my own engine, so if I can do it..
There is a dta forum (not manufactor supported) here: dtaforum.psycode.com with a few very experienced people.

Get to know the efi-stuff and learn what close-loop fuelling is, read the forced-induction forum about advance-retard and that sort-of things and it will not be that difficult to tune really. These modern ecu's do most of the tuning for you anyways.
Good intercooling and knock detection/controlling are paramount imo for turbo'd cars, even more so on aircooled engines.

Good luck!

[r_towle]

Thank you. Please keep posting, its really alot of fun to see such a tremendous type4 motor out there.

Rich

[Wally]

New dynorun. This was as she ran at the drag strip.

Its corrected to flywheel hp. RWHP was 342hp, for comparison

[r_towle]

Wally,
Please take this question the right way...not as a tease.
I would think that with 400 HP you should be in the 9 second range...or even less.
Is there something not hooking up? need fatter tires? differnt gearing?

I ask to learn...you motivated me way to much...wife is looking funny at me...daughter is asking why I am building another car...
I pulled it apart...doing the body..motor is almost done (it was heading for a 914...so I need to do the aircooling bit...)

So, before I launch into the suspension, which is my winter project...anything that you would change?

Rich

[type3]

That's nuts! I take my hat off to you!

[Wally]

Wally,
Please take this question the right way...not as a tease.
I would think that with 400 HP you should be in the 9 second range...or even less.
Is there something not hooking up? need fatter tires? differnt gearing?

No worries there, you pose a valid point and one I am wondering about too.
First of all, its not a drag race car, far from it.
With my total weight at the line, it would never be nines. Your assumption is caused by too much internet reading of dedicated drag-race bugs that are towed to tracks I think

There are possible improvements to be had if I for instance would get a better 60ft and thats more like practice and adjusting the startline rpm (which I had not have time for). 0.2 second better 60ft is about 0.4 second better ET...
Also the shifting could be faster and I lift when shifting. In the log you see 0.5 second lift and then it takes even longer for boost and power to regain. It all adds up, especially x3 with 3 shifts on a run.
Drag racing looks like its just driving straight 402 meters, but its more of a skill then most realise.
Lets face it, I may just be an '11-second driver' with 10-second car/power

For those doubting the dyno: log showed nearing 80% IDC with my 1000cc injectors...and I even run them at a little over the reference 3 bar fuel pressure (3.25 bar) and AFR stays in the 'power zone'. Fuel makes the power, so its really there