I have my new case, but I'm way too consumed to build anything out of it yet..I have speced it out to an extent, definately did NOT like what I saw, especially the thrust surface of the #1 main, it was .003 low from the factory..
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
New TI case (Aluminum)
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Empified
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Damnnnnnnnnnn, I want to build my engine and be burning up the streets within the next month. Well if it stops snowing in Chicago atleast. I know patience is a virtue. I'm just used to the Internet being so fast with information, I must have forgotten the human eliment involved in the testing of the new cases. Keep up the great work everyone involved in this new and exciting case. Empified............
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If you've got Empi you've got game!!!!
No fat chicks allowed my bug will scrape!!!!
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If you've got Empi you've got game!!!!
No fat chicks allowed my bug will scrape!!!!
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wchiro
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason M:
<B>I'm not sure what you mean by no thru bolts Jake? Check out this pic.
http://www.vwparts.net/photos/cases/alc12.jpg </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jake, Thru bolts are basically Nuts & Bolts (with washers of course). they are used instead of the six studs that go through the main bearing saddles. Thru bolts are used on aftermarket cases like Scat, Bugpack, & Autocraft to name a few. Thru bolts are more desirable than studs in a high HP, high RPM race motor. But don't get me wrong, studs work ok they've been around a long time. Thru bolts are the way to go if you got the $$$$$$.
<B>I'm not sure what you mean by no thru bolts Jake? Check out this pic.
http://www.vwparts.net/photos/cases/alc12.jpg </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jake, Thru bolts are basically Nuts & Bolts (with washers of course). they are used instead of the six studs that go through the main bearing saddles. Thru bolts are used on aftermarket cases like Scat, Bugpack, & Autocraft to name a few. Thru bolts are more desirable than studs in a high HP, high RPM race motor. But don't get me wrong, studs work ok they've been around a long time. Thru bolts are the way to go if you got the $$$$$$.
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Shad Laws
- Posts: 1605
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Hello-
Thru bolts are more desirable than studs in a high HP, high RPM race motor. But don't get me wrong, studs work ok they've been around a long time. Thru bolts are the way to go if you got the $$$$$$.
Through bolts are good on engines from 68hp on up. Threaded studs are good only up until about 54hp. Beyond that the main bearing support setup fails. Those hp numbers are VW factory numbers
.
In fact, I'll argue that through bolts are a greater advantage than aluminum... case in point: they made a magnesium 911, but never one without through bolts!
Take care,
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Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com
Thru bolts are more desirable than studs in a high HP, high RPM race motor. But don't get me wrong, studs work ok they've been around a long time. Thru bolts are the way to go if you got the $$$$$$.
Through bolts are good on engines from 68hp on up. Threaded studs are good only up until about 54hp. Beyond that the main bearing support setup fails. Those hp numbers are VW factory numbers
.In fact, I'll argue that through bolts are a greater advantage than aluminum... case in point: they made a magnesium 911, but never one without through bolts!
Take care,
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Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com
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danimal
- Posts: 958
- Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
>>>Threaded studs are good only up until about 54hp. Beyond that the main bearing support setup fails.<<<
so everyone out here that's building anything beyond a stock 1600 will end up with a pile of junk...
yeah, right.
>>>Those hp numbers are VW factory numbers<<<
then you shouldn't have any problem telling us where to find those figures...
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
so everyone out here that's building anything beyond a stock 1600 will end up with a pile of junk...
yeah, right.
>>>Those hp numbers are VW factory numbers
<<<then you shouldn't have any problem telling us where to find those figures...
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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Eaallred
- Posts: 2485
- Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Missed the joke train, Dan?
Maybe you'll catch it on the return.
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Eric
64 Bug
64 Bus
Maybe you'll catch it on the return.
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Eric
64 Bug
64 Bus
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Dan,
I do believe that you just invited yourself for a ride that you will not forget....Damn right he will state where he found the numbers, and won't have to ASK as single soul. Shad is a research god, he will back up and prove it, I'll betcha on that one..
I know Shad too well, get ready for about a 15 page post, or email if you want it.
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
I do believe that you just invited yourself for a ride that you will not forget....Damn right he will state where he found the numbers, and won't have to ASK as single soul. Shad is a research god, he will back up and prove it, I'll betcha on that one..
I know Shad too well, get ready for about a 15 page post, or email if you want it.
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
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danimal
- Posts: 958
- Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
hey, if he's got factory vw documentation like he claims, lets see it.
meanwhile, jake, maybe you can explain how it's possible for you to be building type 1 performance motors... shad sez it can't be done, lol!
or did that go over your head also? allred sure didn't get it, but that's nothing new
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
meanwhile, jake, maybe you can explain how it's possible for you to be building type 1 performance motors... shad sez it can't be done, lol!
or did that go over your head also? allred sure didn't get it, but that's nothing new
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Dan,
I can't build a Type I engine, I just cover all the parts up and wait for the tooth fairy to come by, I put a hundred dollar bill under my pillow and the next morning it's on the dyno when I get to work..I turn it about 8 grand, to break in the cam, change the oil and throw it in a crate!..LOL
It's all good, Shad will find the info, I'm confident...
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
I can't build a Type I engine, I just cover all the parts up and wait for the tooth fairy to come by, I put a hundred dollar bill under my pillow and the next morning it's on the dyno when I get to work..I turn it about 8 grand, to break in the cam, change the oil and throw it in a crate!..LOL
It's all good, Shad will find the info, I'm confident...
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
-
oval4
New TI case (Aluminum)
I think Dan will be safe with case studs. I don't think he has the knowledge to build a motor with more than 54 horsepower.
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Eaallred
- Posts: 2485
- Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
I'll be honest, I thought Shad was kidding, those numbers are pretty low.
But if Shad is being serious, I have no doubt that he's not pulling these numbers out of his ass.
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Eric
64 Bug
64 Bus
But if Shad is being serious, I have no doubt that he's not pulling these numbers out of his ass.
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Eric
64 Bug
64 Bus
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danimal
- Posts: 958
- Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
"Threaded studs are good only up until about 54hp. Beyond that the main bearing support setup fails." -shad laws
"A 1914 is a good engine for power....We have squeezed 138 HP from one" -jake raby
so what's going on here, jake? lol, are you building engines that are gonna blow up?
how can your motors live when shad sez it's impossible?
1) either you totally lied to us
2) or shad laws is full of... beans)
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
"A 1914 is a good engine for power....We have squeezed 138 HP from one" -jake raby
so what's going on here, jake? lol, are you building engines that are gonna blow up?
how can your motors live when shad sez it's impossible?
1) either you totally lied to us
2) or shad laws is full of... beans
)dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Yeah,
I'm full of it, trust Shad before you trust me.....
There is more than one way to comprehend what shad said, unless you are trying to misconstrue the point, like what Dan is best known for.
I feel that VW knew their case was maxed out FOR A PRODUCTION VEHICLE"S POWERPLANT at 1600cc, thats why they developed the TIV, and made it of Aluminum, with through bolts.
So Dan, if this new case is so damn good, why the hell didn't VW use it, Magnesium is 3 times the cost to die (Vacuum) cast than sand cast aluminum, and it's all about money, so why didn't they do this in the production days?? Like someone above stated, the 25HP engine was aluminum, just like this, yet they changed to Magnesium, WHICH COST THEM MORE.....Why Dan???? Why?? I'll send you a quarter, maybe you can call someone with the answer. Everything is speculation, and guessing, there is no right wrong or indifferent, so lets shut the hell up and go back to work.
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
I'm full of it, trust Shad before you trust me.....
There is more than one way to comprehend what shad said, unless you are trying to misconstrue the point, like what Dan is best known for.
I feel that VW knew their case was maxed out FOR A PRODUCTION VEHICLE"S POWERPLANT at 1600cc, thats why they developed the TIV, and made it of Aluminum, with through bolts.
So Dan, if this new case is so damn good, why the hell didn't VW use it, Magnesium is 3 times the cost to die (Vacuum) cast than sand cast aluminum, and it's all about money, so why didn't they do this in the production days?? Like someone above stated, the 25HP engine was aluminum, just like this, yet they changed to Magnesium, WHICH COST THEM MORE.....Why Dan???? Why?? I'll send you a quarter, maybe you can call someone with the answer. Everything is speculation, and guessing, there is no right wrong or indifferent, so lets shut the hell up and go back to work.
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
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Shad Laws
- Posts: 1605
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Hello-
Every bit of "research" I have can be gleaned from a few spec sheets, pieced together with some previous experience and a little common sense.
First, how common is align boring a T1 case? It's *almost* routine for every engine rebuild. How common is align boring a T4 case? I wouldn't say it's non-existant, but it is MUCH, MUCH less common. And, the average T4 engine puts out more power than the average T1 engine (namely because one starts out with so much more power than the other).
But, hey, that knowledge was derived from aftermarket guys. What do we know? Let's look at the people who spent the millions to make them in the first place.
The most powerful T1-based engine VW ever produced made 54hp. That is a late fuel injected engine (T1 or T3). In the mid-60s, VW wanted to make a luxury car and a sports car. To push these heavier cars, they decided that they needed more power. Now, if you are a company that has just finished developing a brand new engine (in 1961) and just finished reestablishing all the dealers, tools, spare parts and whatnot to service this new block, you want to try and maximize your investment, right? So, do you think for a single second that if VW could have reliably gotten 68hp (the most underpowered of all T4 engines) from a T1-based engine that they'd have ever spent the huge amount of money to develop an entirely different engine? NO WAY!!!
Take care,
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Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com
Every bit of "research" I have can be gleaned from a few spec sheets, pieced together with some previous experience and a little common sense.
First, how common is align boring a T1 case? It's *almost* routine for every engine rebuild. How common is align boring a T4 case? I wouldn't say it's non-existant, but it is MUCH, MUCH less common. And, the average T4 engine puts out more power than the average T1 engine (namely because one starts out with so much more power than the other).
But, hey, that knowledge was derived from aftermarket guys. What do we know? Let's look at the people who spent the millions to make them in the first place.
The most powerful T1-based engine VW ever produced made 54hp. That is a late fuel injected engine (T1 or T3). In the mid-60s, VW wanted to make a luxury car and a sports car. To push these heavier cars, they decided that they needed more power. Now, if you are a company that has just finished developing a brand new engine (in 1961) and just finished reestablishing all the dealers, tools, spare parts and whatnot to service this new block, you want to try and maximize your investment, right? So, do you think for a single second that if VW could have reliably gotten 68hp (the most underpowered of all T4 engines) from a T1-based engine that they'd have ever spent the huge amount of money to develop an entirely different engine? NO WAY!!!
Take care,
------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com
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Shad Laws
- Posts: 1605
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2001 12:01 am
New TI case (Aluminum)
Hello-
Re: the aluminum vs. magnesium production thing... for *most* things in industry, especially those made of common materials like steel, aluminum, and magnesium, the majority of the price of a piece is NOT material, it's labor.
Let's look at an engine case. There is a LOT of accuracy needed in that case. One way to get it is to use machines for everything, but that is incredibly expensive. To make something relatively cheap on the mass production scale, you gotta cast in most of the features.
Around the time the VW was designed, there was this new alloy being used, namely in Nazi Germany (it was one of the prides of Nazi engineering... along with their hoax "gold production" plants, but that's another story altogether). I forget what they called it then... but it starts with an E (something like Elektra maybe???). Anyway, it was a magnesium alloy that was produced primarily from seawater. It had a low melting point (cheap to cast). This, combined with a lower rate of thermal expansion (about 1/2 that of cast aluminums) gives it much less shrinkage. I won't get into the details of shrinkage, although people with some casting knowledge know that this means that you could cast pieces with much more accuracy for much less cash! When it comes time for the inevitable machining operations, which are oh-so-expensive, it's also cheaper to machine the soft magnesium than the aluminum. It is CHEAPER to mass produce a magnesium VW engine case than an aluminum one!
To get the required accuracy, VW die casted aluminum to replace the sand casted magnesium. This trend is common to all engine and tranny cases of VW and Porsche. This was needed to get enough accuracy... but costs cash.
Now, on the short run production scale, things can be different. Sand casting aluminum can be dirt cheap. Of course, it can also yield less-than-ideal results for items such as engine cases...
Take care,
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Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com
Re: the aluminum vs. magnesium production thing... for *most* things in industry, especially those made of common materials like steel, aluminum, and magnesium, the majority of the price of a piece is NOT material, it's labor.
Let's look at an engine case. There is a LOT of accuracy needed in that case. One way to get it is to use machines for everything, but that is incredibly expensive. To make something relatively cheap on the mass production scale, you gotta cast in most of the features.
Around the time the VW was designed, there was this new alloy being used, namely in Nazi Germany (it was one of the prides of Nazi engineering... along with their hoax "gold production" plants, but that's another story altogether). I forget what they called it then... but it starts with an E (something like Elektra maybe???). Anyway, it was a magnesium alloy that was produced primarily from seawater. It had a low melting point (cheap to cast). This, combined with a lower rate of thermal expansion (about 1/2 that of cast aluminums) gives it much less shrinkage. I won't get into the details of shrinkage, although people with some casting knowledge know that this means that you could cast pieces with much more accuracy for much less cash! When it comes time for the inevitable machining operations, which are oh-so-expensive, it's also cheaper to machine the soft magnesium than the aluminum. It is CHEAPER to mass produce a magnesium VW engine case than an aluminum one!
To get the required accuracy, VW die casted aluminum to replace the sand casted magnesium. This trend is common to all engine and tranny cases of VW and Porsche. This was needed to get enough accuracy... but costs cash.
Now, on the short run production scale, things can be different. Sand casting aluminum can be dirt cheap. Of course, it can also yield less-than-ideal results for items such as engine cases...
Take care,
------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com