upright turbo build

[Piledriver]

Another random Q.

I've been thinking about Pistons, from what I understand a 2l stock 94mm piston has a pin height of 36mm, and a 1.8 should be 42.5mm going by the 202.5 total length. My question is, could I use 2l pistons with my 1.8 crank/rods and then have shims machined to 6.5mm(or whatever it needs to be when I assemble it) to make up the difference?

Also, I think I've deceided to have Jake balance the bottom end, but before I send it to him would I be a moron by trying to lighten the rods a bit myself? Im not planning on going nuts, but it seems like a lot of weight could be lost on the stock 1.8 rods.

Actually you wouldn't need shims for that, you'd be cutting the jugs and pushrod tubes down ~6mm./side.

Good luck getting that cooling tin on, might be easier than going wider though.

Leave the rods be.
They can be lightened quite a bit by folks who have done it and have a big lathe and the tooling, and likely destroyed in an instant if you eyeball it with a grinder.

Theres like one place in the Dallas/Fort worth metro area that supposedly could rebuild rods properly...
RIMCO would have been a LOT cheaper, including shipping, and done a better job.

Decent bolts would be my priority. RIMCO can set you up with both if you desire (for a price of course), fusername was looking for a source of reasonably priced good stock-replacement bolts awhile back but I don't recall if he ever found the source.

They should have the big ends re-sized when the bolts are replaced, at least.

[tonyorlo]

Good luck getting that cooling tin on, might be easier than going wider though.

Leave the rods be.
They can be lightened quite a bit by folks who have done it and have a big lathe and the tooling, and likely destroyed in an instant if you eyeball pit with a grinder.

Theres like one place in the Dallas/Fort worth metro area that supposedly could rebuild rods properly...
RIMCO would have been a LOT cheaper, including shipping, and done a better job.

Decent bolts would be my priority. RIMCO can set you up with both if you desire (for a price of course), fusername was looking for a source of reasonably priced good stock-replacement bolts awhile back but I don't recall if he ever found the source.

They should have the big ends re-sized when the bolts are replaced, at least.

Other than the cooling tin and pushrod tubes, is there any dis advantage to going shorter? The cooling tins won't be a problem to make work, I'm more worried about the pushrod tubes not sealing correctly.

For the con rods, I was going to buy a cheap scale and have my machinist neighbor help me shave some metal off of them. I would get them close to the same weight and have the person balancing them fine tune them. If it's not worth the effort then I won't worry about it.

Does Rimco have balancing services? I'm open to having anyone do it.

Edit: After laying it out, with all the time and money I will have trying to make the 94s work I can just buy a set of 96s. I would like an opinion on balancing services. I've found a few threads on the subject.

2nd Edit: This idea has been in my head for awhile so I figured I'd ask. I don't have a ton of hand on experience with air cooled VWs so it's hard for me to really make my mind up. I'm wondering if I should go type 1 instead of type 4. I've ran all the numbers both ways, For the cost of building my type 4 and re using as many parts as I can, I can build a new 82x94 type 1. Is that a bad idea? I have no local machine shop services that I trust so I will have to farm everything out of town.

Work is too slow right now, I have entirely way too much time to sit around and think about this stuff.

[Piledriver]

A t1 is down about 30% on cooling capability, but has advantages as to cost/parts availability, esp as you can get nice new CNC ported heads for what 2L Porsche core heads once went for, better for a turbo motor with short bursts of boost.

It still wont be cheap built properly.

Cooling could be a significant issue, depending on use/climate.

[tonyorlo]

I'm going to use the stock upright t1 style cooling either way I go. The availability of parts makes it more attractive to me. That and I have no shops within 1.5-2hrs of me that I would even consider doing VW work. The car is a toy that might see the 7 mile commute to work ever now and then.

From what Ive figured I can build a complete new T1 for what I will have in a pieced together type 4. I plan to use an external oil cooler as well because of the turbo. If I have a problem with cooling, I think Id convert to DTM kit. I know its a bad idea, but Id love to do the Porsche fan eventually just for the look.

I like the bottom end kits that DRD offers. Id like to go that route with a set of their trick L7 heads.

[Clatter]

Type 1s suck, man... Unless they are stock they just fall apart.

Build a type 4, _then_ tell me you want another type 1.

I hate my type 1 - I can't get it to stay together long enough to sell it to some poor sucker.

[NextGen]

I have to go with Clatter. T-1 is fine if you keep it stock and maybe up to 1700 if you do it right, but a T-4 will last 3 times as long. Be

My daily driver is a Toyota Solara Coupe for my 70 mile round trip. It starts in any weather and in the 130000 miles I have on it I only put in a light bulb.

I paid 23k for it, the reason being I want the most I can get out of my money and time after time I get it.

I did countless T-1's and would not put a dime into one, like throwing my hard earned money away. Like Clatter said, the more powerful you make a T-1 the faster it fails. Been there done that!! After I figured that out I wrote the manual to tell guys, once you build a T-4 you do not look back..

[tonyorlo]

I'm torn on this!! Lol. I chose type 4 in the beginning for a reason, I need to stick to It.

I wish there was a stock spec forged piston for the 1.8.

[tonyorlo]

Joe, your one of the main reasons I chose to do the swap. I have your book and I've already got the cylinder tins done for my 1.8.

I'm really deterred from it because of the lack of local machine shops. It seems like I can buy a T1 mail order with all the machine work done. I should know it's never that easy, and I've read so many complaints about cheap Chinese T1 stuff that I should know to steer clear from it.

is really just like to run 94mm pistons and there are 2 options that I know of.

-buy 2l p&cs and have the cylinders shaved down. Seems like any competent machine shop could turn them down in a lathe to my needed specs.

-have weiscos make a set of custom 94s and get a 93mm cylinder and have it bored to 94.

What's the smarter choice?

[Piledriver]

I'm torn on this!! Lol. I chose type 4 in the beginning for a reason, I need to stick to It.

I wish there was a stock spec forged piston for the 1.8.

"Stock spec" covers a lot of ground if you think outside the box, or ignore it completely.

93mm bore and ~30mm compression height is a Subaru 2.2 piston. 1mm oversize.
They exist.
You might even be able to get them in lesser pin heights and drop a stroker crank of some size in to make the T1 journal crank expense worthwhile. Chevy 2" journal makes for less>no clearancing, and is a possible option.

A 93mm T4 jug is probably thicker wall than any T1 cylinder in existence, except the ARPM etc siamese jobs for methanol sprint car use.
This is an excellent thing for boost.

The hypereutetic (but made for boost) stock subaru slugs would work but you'd have to select rods that could be set up for a 23mm pin.
There are also hordes of forged slugs for those, in a huge array of dish choices and alloys.
You want the stock hypers or 4000 series alloy pistons if you want to see >20K miles from them.

//begin jedi mind trick voice//
SCAT Ibeams are the rods you (probably) seek..
//end jedi mind trick//
They have tons of meat at the pins, and are stronger than any Hbeam remotely in a non-Carrillo price range. Can even be had with ARP2000 or even better 3/8" bolts. They also happen to border on being inexpensive.

SCAT may even do the mod for you.

OTOH you could just put decent bolts in your existing 1.7L rods & crank, have some custom pistons made and boost the snot out of a 1.8 for far less cost, and it would be just as if not more sturdy.

A blown up turbo motor makes no power, and simple is simpler than complicated, right?
Concentrate on the goal.
On a boosted setup you need excellent ignition, fuel and knock control.
I suggest an MS3 with the knock module, and probably an MS3X so you can tune each hole.
Build an easy to build solid but very sturdy motor and get good control of your tune.

[tonyorlo]

I contacted SCAT in November about custom rods, they said they do not offer anything. I contacted them today about modifying a set of their type 1 rods for me. From what Ive read, the type 1 has the same 55mm big end diameter as the 1.7-1.8 but a different width. Maybe they will be able to do that for me, if so I could maybe use a T1 piston. Wiseco will change the pin height of a t1. I could then get 94mm cylinders for a t4, or even get 1.7 cylinders and have the punched out to 94. I will wait and see what SCAT says.

The subaru pistons have 23mm pin diameters, Id have to get my rods re bushed to use them right?

Lets say I go with the 1.8, Ill estimate some of the costs
Use stock 1.8 crank - Free
Re size stock 1.8 rods w/arp 2000 bolts and re bush for 22mm pin $200?
Wiseco 94mm pistons w/ changed pin height $450
1.7 cylinders used $100
Bore each cylinder to 94mm, $30ea - $120 total

Thats $870

Another plan, going 2.0
DPR crank from ac.net $210
2.0 H beam rods w/arp bolts from ac.net $330
2.0 Mahle 94mm forged p&cs $400

Thats $940, which seems easier for me because I will have to have all my machine work done through mail order.

I also like the Idea of using my 1.8 crank and rods with 2.0 94mm p&cs, and have the cylinders turned down to be at the correct deck. I might even be able to have a local Chevy shop do that for me?

I know it seems like Im trying to cut corners, but I really am not. I just want to get the most bang for my buck. I like the idea of using 2L pistons with my 1.8, and shaving the barrels down. Im going to stop by some shops and see if anyone can do that for me.

I have a MS2 3.57 on the shelf I was planning to use. Im going to get the CAN-EGT, and have 4 CHT thermocouples, and 4 EGT thermocouples. Ignition with be a VR sensor, and a cam sync from Mario. It will be intercooled and water injected.

I have a few TD04 turbos from WRXs that are in good shape. I plan to use one for this car.

[Piledriver]

Unless you have a good T1 block laying around those T1 jugs won't do you much good, but you will be able to sell them and use the pistons if you want to go there.

A 66 stroke crank (t1 journal) stock length T1 rods and T1 "B" pistons ~bolts together to T4 deck height.
1832cc. requires 2l t4 jugs bored/honed to proper clearance.
Potential f-production road race motor, with hbeams and the right heads could potentially rev like crazy..

AA makes nice 94mm forged pistons, work fine installed with proper clearances.
The bad press they got was malpractice by engine builders who should have known better.
Just because they slide into std Mahle jugs cold does not mean they will hot, 2000 series aluminum pistons expand a lot.

The 1700 jugs are useless for this purpose, maybe w/90.5s, 92 bored would be pushing it, plenty thick at the head but not down lower.
The 1800 93s are the thickest wall choice by far.

...or buy some forged 96s from EMW and jugs and put it together as a 1911 as you have everything else.
Thicker wall than T1 94s, at least where the rings run..

if you aren't revving above ~6K the stock rods/bolts are probably fine.
The T4 rods big ends do not really oval out AFAICT.
Most street driven turbo motors are done by 6K anyway, its all about torque.

A hundred or so CCs won't matter much, you primarily need strong non-flexi parts for boost.
Different mindset than NA.
Hbeams aren't buying you anything at 6K. I-beams are usually stronger for boost.

[tonyorlo]

From what I understand, the stock T1 big end width on the rods is 22.7. So I would have to do some work welding them up and having them shaved down and re sized. Which wouldn't be too much of a problem. I think I need to stick to the KISS method instead of trying to re invent the wheel to save a buck.

I didn't see JEs on EMWs site for 1.8s, I contacted them about getting those pistons. They also have rebuild 1.8 rods for a good price, I'm asking if they can install arp bolts for me and re size them. EMW also lists they they can rebuild heads. I was set on a set of DRD heads and maybe I should stick to that. If I could have my stock heads rebuilt for 1/3 the price then that's tempting. I don't need to make tons of hp, and I don't plan to rev past 6k.

[tonyorlo]

I called a local engine shop about widening the rods. They said if I try to have the done it will never be right.

[Piledriver]

I was assuming you were still buying a DRD t1 journal'd crank.

No rod welding---It can be done also with the t4 1.7 journal running piston aligned rods, ala Volvo/NASCAR.
The side clearance is not an oil pressure issue, only bearing<>crank clearance.
Pistons have to be made a somewhat particular way, but a lot of forged pistons and even some cast pistons are candidates.

Many Volvos not only ran piston aligned low friction bottom end, but also a 96mm bore, and ran a 24mm pin, and had dished pistons for turbo use. Pin height varies, don't recall exactly but it was pretty high due to the long stroke.

Just another option with a stroker 2L rod setup or maybe long rod 1.7 bottom end.

[tonyorlo]

Dumb question, lets say I go for a long rod setup and my total length is 205.5mm. How do I make up that difference of 3mm? I can't shim it that much can I?