MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

[Piledriver]

black wire to MS ground, unless it has a separate heater ground, wbo2 and ms grounds must be tied together or the analog WBO2 signal will be bouncing all over the place.

[kangaboy]

I got my relays and ECU mounted to my aluminum mounting plate. Although the instructions for the LC2 Wideband state to ground the black wire to ground, I'm going with Pile and grounding it to the MS sensor ground. While I was at it, and had an extra relay, I went ahead and put in a hard start relay. I put in a much shorter ground lead from my battery to the chassis (was 12inches, is now about 6), and then ran all my power leads and ground lead from my relays and MS over to the battery.



So I think the majority of the MS wiring is completed under the back seat. Time to start working on the engine. Adding the injector manifolds, mounting the turbo, running the oil lines, running sensor lines up to MS, creating a throttle body and manifold...blah blah blah....

[Clonebug]

You are going to have about 27 to 32 wires or more running from the engine to the MS unit......I foresee you having a rats nest once you bring all those wires up.
You are going to run out of room fast!!!!

Not trying to be a dick but speaking from experience it is one of the more time consuming parts of the build to get all the wiring to connect easily and for that matter to be able to disconnect easily if you need to unhook something.
I have 55 year old eyes so if there is poor light I can't read anything.

You are going to have to have some kind of secondary connection so that the D plug isn't the only way to disconnect the wires.
There are 37 connections on that plug and you have to be able to know which one to connect to. You won't be able to see which one you have with the ECU hung under the aluminum plate.

That's one reason I used the relay board. Each connector is numbered and screen printed with the ouput so old farts like me can see it.



I have rewired my stuff to clean it up so many times I can't count.

[Piledriver]

My old eyes are little younger and probably not much better.
There is another way to do things, not as neat looking, nowhere NEAR as much work, but works at least as well.

I have my ECU with two DB37s and a lot more wires hiding under an ~ 8x10" plate under the back seat.
Everything ties onto something on that plate.

The plate attaches to the lip under the seat back with 4 big sheet metal screws.
It is my "engine" as far as the grounding setup is concerned, ECU grounds are ~6"-8" long at most.

No issues with the DB37s,(you cannot hook them up bassackwards) and all the stuff that needs disconnecting is on on a teminal strip on top, 2 relays get power, or a couple ground screws, and a fusebox. I considered putting the car<>ECU stuff all on a AMP plug, but I have rarely needed to jack with it unless I'm testing something, and good enough is truly the enemy of better.

Pull the plate and its all easy to see/screw with. The service loop is long enough to work on easily.
I can pull the whole shebang to setup on my jimstim in under 30 seconds, it takes me longer to find a screwdriver and get the back seat up. Installing takes little longer as everything is labeled or obvious.

I can pull or reinstall the whole wiring harness for the ECU in ~10 minutes, ran it in large smurf tube-ish stuff.
(actually bilge pump flex hose IIRC, about 1-1/2" ID, large enough to pass all the engine-side connectors and the inch+ thick cable bundle, most of which is just tied/taped off and laying on the engine tin...)

The wideband goes through anther tube on the other side, my original ms2 setup had all the high power/pwm stuff routed on the other side of the car, in an excess of caution.

The relay board makes things larger, messier, and more confusing than needed.
Fortunately I probably couldn't even run one if I wanted to.
(MS3/MS3x/sequential, or MS2/MS3X/sequential, same pinouts/3 wire iac)

I can look at my control relays/fuses on top and see what controls what, and how, at a glance.
A relay board is a mystery connected to spaghetti.

My stuff is a cosmetic wiring disaster but I drive it 80 miles a day for the last several years, almost every day.

It has so far been utterly bulletproof as far as wiring goes, and given me far less trouble than several folks I know with 2015 models of various new junk.

I did lose an open element mat sensor the other day, the cheap ones apparently have design issues, as the sensor element is only supported by solder, and not soldered very well at that. it fell off.
I'll probably fix it and make one like Mario does to try, as it basically self-disassembled due to vibration.

The new one went back into a hole in the body beside the air cleaner, as it failed quickly installed in it.
If it was partially filled with epoxy or such to support the thermistors legs (above the solder), it might not suck.

The only trick to reliable wiring is keep it from moving, and screw with it as little as possible.

[kangaboy]

I'm confused why you think it will be a rats nest. I'm not saying it won't, but where is it coming from? I have both of my wire harnesses already running back to the engine bay, along with the fuse panel that the injectors and coils will be getting power from. There is enough room for me to easily disconnect and reconnect both wire looms from the MS. I can easily pull the whole MS unit in five minutes with only four bolts holding it in place.
I won't take insult from any insight given, Clone, and after reading every page of ur build, I know u have the experience to back it up.
I have all my sensor wires, injector wires, and coil wires already in the engine bay, and hooked to my MS with the pre-made wire harnesses from DIY-Auto.

[Clonebug]

My apologies....

I didn't see any wires from the engine compartment going to the ECU and thought you had to run all them in and connect them yet.
I was envisioning a one inch thick harness like mine has that needed to connect to the D plug yet.....

I realize for some people the relay board is not useable and I can totally understand that. For me it has worked well and I like how it makes my wiring compact and easy to read.
For me starting out it made everything understandable. If I ever went sequential I would probably get rid of it but there doesn't seem to be enough gain for me to make it worth while since all I am after is HP.

Each person does it to their liking and all I was trying to say was that you will more than likely change or add something and to make sure you leave room to do that easily. I used a lot of terminal strips to connect wires and split from one wire to many especially with power and grounds.

If you are like most you probably like messing with this stuff just for sanity sake.
I do it to keep my mind active and still enjoy it as a hobby and challenge after almost 15 years....most of my hobbies only last till I master them and then I move on.

Could you post some pics of the whole car and build???
I would like to see what you are building.
I try to learn from others and when I see something I like I use the parts that I can apply to me and incorporate them into my own.

Like I said before, I spent more time staring at my electrical trying to figure out how to incorporate it than actually wiring it.
If you followed my build then you would have seen the pile of cut wires and wire ties laying on the floor of the garage on one of my many rewires.

Here is a site for you to read......It is a massive store of information and I usually keep this site to myself.
There are many, many sections to this site and although they are kind of cocky, I'm thinking they have seen it all in their 30 years of work and have earned the attitude.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/

Find the turbo and Water Injection sections.....they are a gold mine.
I find it interesting that some of the calculators they have have come out pretty close to what they recommend on my build......but I just kind of fell into it where they have done the research.

They also have some pretty cool wiring setups......way beyond what you or I could ever do but it gives us a goal to reach for.

Oh what the heck... here you go.....

Water injection

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

Intercoolers

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm

Calculators for most everything

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calculations.htm

Read through the site and let me know what you think.

[Devastator]

Cool link posted there. Wish there was a TB size calculator though.

[woodsbuggy1]

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm#throttle
This is the one that I have been using.
Kenric

[Devastator]

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm#throttle
This is the one that I have been using.
Kenric

thanks for that. Been so long since I perused the Megamanual, I'd forgotten about that.

[kangaboy]

I have been keeping busy on my build, I promise...just nothing worth discussing or posting pictures about
Doing a lot of electrical work on the main fuse panel. Took out the old fuse box and replaced it with a modern blade style fuse box. Also have been pulling tons of un-needed wiring out of the way as well (Seat belt light, door buzzer, etc.) Oh, also put in my high/low beam headlight relays.
The motor part has gone slow, because while trying to put my trans in with the new mounts, I cross threaded one of the big 21mm frame head bolts...so while waiting for that to get fixed, I've been working on electrical stuff.
ANYWAY...I have a 6 panel fuse box routed to the back in the engine bay for my 4 truck coils and fuel injectors. My question here is, with only 6 fuses...how should I have this set up to supply the correct/safest amount of power?
Combine a coil and injector on each lead, and have 2 open fuses for future use?
4 coils on 2 fuses, and then 1 injector on the other 4?
All 4 coils on a separate fuse and 2 injectors on the other 2?

[Piledriver]

Make SURE you foget about the megamanual when actually setting up your ECU for MSextra.
The hardware is used quite differently in places, and study of the megamanual will only cause intense headaches later.

coils individially fused.

Injectors draw very little power really unless lowZ, one is fine, I used two due to how i wired it.

I have a relay that feeds both fuse sets, with a switch on the relay coil line so I can depower the coils and injectors when flashing firmware.

Makes an excellent immobilizer as well.

[kangaboy]

I have an update

After lots of thinking and suggestions from a few similar setups on STF, I decided to rethink my turbo. So, I packed up a bag of tools and headed to the local Pick-N-Pull. For $35 each, I rummaged through a few saabs and got some nice little snails. The first one I got was a TD04HL-15T. It pictured below. I didn't know I could check the turbine play and movement before spending 45 min getting the turbo out, but nothing a little rebuild couldn't fix. Tons of coked oil everywhere. Shined up the internals and it spins great now.



The other turbo I got was a Garret G17...which is what I'll likely be using first. No rebuild required, and I would rather use it because I actually have a compressor map for it, which lines up nicely with my build.

Got my manifolds, injectors, and fuel rails in place and secure. Made some little brackets our of steel, just mimicking the CBPerformance ones. I realized I want to put some 90* fittings on instead of the straights, so that will come in the future. I'll just be going the brass fitting and rubber injector line route, cheap and effective.



Lastly, I have been trying to do some wiring work up front. It's a slow, ugly, tedious process, but it's getting a little better each time. I put in my new fuse box, got all the headlight relays wired, and after testing everything, it all still works. I clearly have some loose ends to clear up, and a lot of wire management to incorporate, but its updated and working...function over fashion.



EDIT: Sorry the pictures are 90* off...photobucket is not cooperating with me tonight.

[Piledriver]

I have a SAAB GT17, was under the square trying to see if it would fit out back the other day...
Make sure it was off the 4 banger, the one off the 6 is weird runs off 3 cylinders with a tiny turbine and a .7 AR, ~same size compressor. (yours looks about normal)

There's not much to them if you can get the bolts out.

Put everything back together with antiseize, as you are likely not going to water cool it.

[kangaboy]

So I have been working on the fuel system this week. The original fuel line from the tank to the car was garbage and all clogged up, so I ran a new line a few years ago. The line is 1/4" od, which looks about the size of the original one...and I was wondering if this will be big enough to provide the fuel required for my EFI system. If it's not, will it be big enough to use as a return line? I am going to have to run an additional line to/from the tank regardless, and I don't really know what size I should be using. So I just need to figure out what size the additional line should be. Lemme know please

[kangaboy]

Crap, meant to ask about coil wires too. I have the LS2 Truck coils, and I'm trying to figure out how to mount the damn things, and would like to know what kind of wires I need so I can have an idea of how long they will be.