Super vs. Standard ?

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:02 am

Ya'll probably can see that I'm playing with a Ghia. But my future plans are to build a car to race in the M class for Autocross. I'm thinking Beetle because it's lighter than a Ghia. Seeing the vids from H_Aich has me wondering if the added weight of a Super is worth having the McP front end. Anybody have experience with both and have an opinion to share?

WD-40 · Post by **WD-40** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:38 pm

Does your current Ghia have front discs? Might be one benefit of sticking with it.... I'm not sure if that is an issue in your class.

- David

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:03 am

Brakes are unrestricted in M class, not an issue. There are enough things about a Beetle that I like more than the Ghia that there is no question it will be a Beetle. I'm more interested in feedback on the McP vs. tortion bar front end.

bigGreen · Post by **bigGreen** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:52 am

If you have a look on here,
http://www.boxerpokal.de/
(You can use Google to translate the page for you)
it says that the difference between TB beam and McPherson strut beetle is negligible. In fact the cars with Torsionbar beam were fastest in last years races.

With next to zero body roll, logic dictates that there won't be any difference between the two cars. Only possible difference would be caused by the extra weight (about 50kg??) on front of the superbeetle.
All their cars at boxerpokal have the semi-trailing rear as far as I know.

volkswagen50 · Post by **volkswagen50** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:24 pm

Hey Ozzie! How's this season treating you?

I ran the standard last year for a couple and went to the super this year. I like the super better. Something to think about, springs! Torsion fronts, one other choice of bars, only 15% stiffer. Supers have coils, that means new spring rates just about any rate you want.

Have you looked at XP class Oz? You can run a Suby motor! I just happen to have a type 3 fastback not going anywhere.............

That's what I'm planning. Greg

ericsbracer · Post by **ericsbracer** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:55 am

With all the stuff available for a Super, especially with the later struts (like bolt on Porsche parts), combined with something like the MaXX struts from Topline - your ability to fine tune the handling has to be much better than a beam front end.

FWIW - I'm not sure the weight issue is an issue. I know the Treuhaft car had a dry weight of around 1570-1580. I had my car down to 1700, and that was with Chromies, DOT tires and glass 1/4 & rear windows.

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:17 am

bigGreen: That's a great website! Haven't found the translate button yet. What you're saying about both suspensions being stiff & the differences being negligable makes some sense, but it is suspension just the same. It has a job to do & McP does it better for what I want to do. I'm not sure about the trade offs.
volkswagen50: Sent an e-mail this AM. Can't wait to see what goes on with the T3 Fasty. Keep up the good show with your autocrossing. Learn a lot from it, so you can teach me.
ericsbracer: Is Treuhaft still around? I remember seeing the "Big Bertha" ads from 25 years ago. What did you do to get your Beetle so light? I hope the parts themselves are adjustable. I can see the pile of parts now.

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:23 am

Hey Ozzie, use this http://www.freetranslations.com Use the site translator and copy and paste the URL for the page.

I was doing the same research last year, for an earlier super like 1971 to late 72. The car is heavier in the front, but that's good. Struts, springs combinations are endless. The SB is better suited for autocross, and if you really put it on a diet, the Ghia will seems like a heavy truck. The 71 i had, I sold, and l am still keeping the Ghia. We'll see in the future. For the money, and mods available, I will choose an early SB over a STD Beetle.

E

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:30 am

Thanks Ephry

ericsbracer · Post by **ericsbracer** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:16 am

ozzie wrote: ericsbracer: Is Treuhaft still around? I remember seeing the "Big Bertha" ads from 25 years ago. What did you do to get your Beetle so light? I hope the parts themselves are adjustable. I can see the pile of parts now.

Alan is still around, working at a Toyota dealership in the Santa Barbara area. The car was stolen many many years ago and has never resurfaced. All I did was gut the interior to SCCA B-Sedan specs - meaning no door window glass, no back or passenger seat, just kept the door panels (rules requirement). You can get about 100 pounds out of the car by gutting the interior down to bare metal - those tar boards and all that other crap add up to about 100 pounds! Other than that, I had a hand laid front hood (which saved about 12 pounds over the stock steel and the 'normal' 'glass hoods), all brazillian steel fenders (which are as light as 'glass) and some of those hi quality mexican replacement bumpers

ericsbracer · Post by **ericsbracer** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:17 am

ozzie wrote: ericsbracer: Is Treuhaft still around? I remember seeing the "Big Bertha" ads from 25 years ago. What did you do to get your Beetle so light?

Alan is still around, working at a Toyota dealership in the Santa Barbara area. The car was stolen many many years ago and has never resurfaced. All I did was gut the interior to SCCA B-Sedan specs - meaning no door window glass, no back or passenger seat, just kept the door panels (rules requirement). You can get about 100 pounds out of the car by gutting the interior down to bare metal - those tar boards and all that other crap add up to about 100 pounds! Other than that, I had a hand laid front hood (which saved about 12 pounds over the stock steel and the 'normal' 'glass hoods), all brazillian steel fenders (which are as light as 'glass) and some of those hi quality mexican replacement bumpers

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:25 am

I did not know the Brazilian fenders were so light. I wonder if adding replacement pannels to a stock body will also lighten the vehicle.

E

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:28 am

Sheetmetal guage. The thinner, the cheaper, the lighter.
Just like the 20 ga. pan panels. Ouch!
And the HQ Mexican bumpers

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:40 am

Sweet.

E

WD-40 · Post by **WD-40** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:09 am

I went out in search for some of the ultra-light bumpers a while back, and didn't really get anywhere.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175098

- David