Deck Lid Interference

Post by **doc** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:08 pm

I've got the motor in the car!

But a quick check today indicates that the '63 deck lid is going to hit the pulley. Geez, it's always something!

I have a Bosch AL82N alternator, the standard one, I think. Is there a shorter version alternator? How much could I shave the "front bell" of the pulley? Here's another pic.

How else can I fit everyhting under the stock decklid?

doc

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:27 pm

Doc, Thats some sweet detail work!!

The issue you have experienced is not common at all, but can be present with some cars that have had rear aprons that have been replaced or cars that have been hit in the rear in their lifetimes. Most of the time the damage is not visually notable but since the clearance with an early car in this area is so tight 1/8" of difference is like a mile.

I have only experienced this maybe 5 times in the past..

You can machine some from the pulley face to make it better, swapping to a billet pully may halp as more can be removed safely and correctly. If you buy one of these from me I'll turn it down for you at no charge to help get the car done. I have a mandrel for this as I had to do it for marekv8s install that ever so slightly touched the decklid due to prior damage...

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:53 pm

Beautiful job Doc! How much interference are you talking about? Before shaving the pulley it might be good to know if youre 1/8 or 1/2"

Ron

Post by **doc** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:30 pm

Thanks for the offer Jake. That may be an answer.

Ron, you are spot on, though. All I did today was lay the deck lid over the motor for the first time. I don't know whether we're talking 1/8" or a 1/2". It was one of those moments where I was gettin' excited only to have another little issue pop up to consume more time and energy. I know you guys know the story.

Let me noodle on this a little and try to do some measuring. As I looked at the pulley today, I couldn't believe how fat it was. Never noticed til it bit me. I'll try to to repost to this thread with an indication of how big a problem it is.

Thanks again.

doc

type3 · Post by **type3** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:38 am

Kinda looks like a big gap between the two pulley surfaces. Maybe it's just the photo, but how many shims do you have between the two pulley halves at the moment?

[edit]: Also, looking from above, are the two pulleys in line with each other?

cheers,
type3

Post by **doc** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:07 am

Man, T3, your eyes are good. All the shims are between the pulleys in this pic, creating that big space. And, no, the pulleys do not line up. The whole alternator setup has seemed too long since the beginning.

I'm going to try to spend some time this afternoon trying to figure it out. Contrary to Jake's assessment, I don't think the car has ever been hit in the rear. Don't know for sure, but if it's been repaired, somebody did a remarkable job. But whatever the genesis of the interference, I gotta find a way to make the alternator assembly a little shorter. I'll try to make some measurements/guesstimates and post those here. Like both Jake and Ron infer, the solution probably depends on how much I have to accomodate for.

Stay tuned. Comments and opinions appreciated.

doc

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:31 am

Doc,
Rear aprons can fool the best eyes... All it takes is just a tap to the rear to create this issue and the pulley spacing isn't helping anything..

What I have done in the past was use our aluminum backing plate with the floor that the alternator sits against machined down a few thousandths.

If the alternator pulley does clear with the shims reduced you can add the factory TIV pulley spacer under the crank pulley to add .110 to the crank pulley length to help the belt geometry.

Post by **doc** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:36 am

Jake,

Thanks. Yea, I looked again at both apron and deck lid and it's just impossible to tell if they're "cherry" or maybe they have moved "a little" since 1963. In any case, if I take all the shims out of the alternator setup, it looks like the deck lid might almost clear. I measured the 11 spacers at about .210"-.215". So, I'm thinking I need to come up with at least a 1/4".

Looking at the aftermarket pulley I have now, it looks giant. Jake, I wonder how it would compare with your billet pulley? How much can your pulley be shaved? How about your backing plate, as well? I am currently using the stock T1 setup. Can I gain anything with the different backing plate?

I'll try to measure my current pulley width and repost later.

doc

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:07 pm

Jake:

What I have done in the past was use our aluminum backing plate with the floor that the alternator sits against machined down a few thousandths.

How much can you lower the whole fan and generator assembly? the position of the crank pully pretty much sets where the alt pully has to be front to rear, but if the alt pully can drop down a bit and a smaller belt be used.

I guess you don't like deck lid stand offs.

Ron[/quote]

crocteau · Post by **crocteau** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:31 pm

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:Doc, Thats some sweet detail work!!

Amen to that, and in addition to the accents (nice color by the way

) I like the way you tucked the rear tin brackets in behind the crank pulley. Are you going hard line to the cooler? Let me guess, you were in the Marines and miss shining the pipes in the head

I reckon that'll help with cooling, but if the next picture shows coils of copper tubing I'll know for sure you're from down around my old home in east Tennessee

. As others noted, I'm hoping your moving the spacers gives you the clearance you need for the deck lid. Looks like you've got the alt as far forward as it'll go on the stand; did you try Jake's method of checking pulley alignment with two yardsticks? I'd be interested to read about details of your vacuum hookup. Keep up the good work and post more pics!

Post by **doc** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:46 pm

Crocteau,

Thanks for the comments. I wish the pics could do justice to the color on the car. It's WAY metallic. Almost bass boat metallic. Some people won't like it, but I'm going to put a little dog with a bobble head in the back window and drive around with my arm out the window

. I love metallic paint. The gold metallic on the engine is the base coat, with lots of candy apple red on top. Looks great in the sun!

I have been fighting the black oil line hoses since the beginning. For some of us, function is not everything.

As a matter of fact, I have been playing with the idea of hard lines in both copper and stainless, but getting the relatively large tube diameter bent is very tough. It's not like brake lines. I also have some concerns about leaks and breakage with hard lines. Looks like you'd almost have to install an auto kill switch for a zero oil pressure situation. I'm kind of hunting around locally for an "expert" pipe bender. (I've learned how to make the flared ends!)

Since I'm actually getting close to starting the engine at this point, I think I am just going to install the standard ss braided hoses to get things up and running. The hard lines will have to wait for an upgrade moment. But I do love the idea of spiraled, ss hard lines tracking down the left side of the motor. Just hard for a home boy like me to pull off.

I got the pulley more "in line" today just using the adjustment Jake provides in his alternator base. But, checking with sticks is a good test. I'll do it. I figure the real test is when it runs. It's almost hard to see the exact alignment with the engine just sitting there.

Jake has got me thinking about the deck lid. I wonder how much I can "move" the deck lid itself. We think of the sheet metal as stationary, but...... Again, the real test will come when I can actually mount the deck lid. Holding it up there and "eyeballing" probably won't get me the final answer.

I'll keep everybody posted. Thanks.

doc

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:58 am

There are a few things that are adjuatable.. The decklid can move a bit before you have odd issues that make it look bad..

Also the generator stand can have the holes enlarged a bit to get more adjustability and the holes that hold the mount bar to the case can also be enlarged/ovaled/elongated as well as the pulley being machined. The billet pulleys are very thick and allow a good bit of material to be removed from them..

being able to tell that a car has been tapped in the rear is not easy... After 40+ years there is a good chance that most 60s beetles have had rear damage. Sometimes the best way to find this is trying to install a TIV...

Post by **doc** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:17 am

Jake,

Looking at it again, I see that with the stock backing plate (all three pieces) I have currently installed, the alternator actually sits about 1/4" in front of the DTM face. Would the metal backing plate allow the alternator to sit farther back?

Do you know how much I might gain with your turned down billet pulley?

doc

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:58 pm

You could easily gain 3/8" with the billet pulley after being turned down..

The backing plate should drop your alternator back about 1/8"..

Post by **doc** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:39 am

Jake,

You got pm.

doc