67' camber compensator

NOTW · Post by **NOTW** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:18 pm

Im sure its been covered somewhere before(yes i know theres a search feature), but ill ask again...i need a camber compensator for my 67 im setting up for some nice mountain driving. ive got new KYB gas-a-justs and ive shimmed the z-bar accordingly. now im trying to decide on what camber compensator to use. Im considering either the CB or SAW versions, whats the quality like on these two models?, why such the price difference (quality)?, and just for future reference, if i were to do a 2inch tranny raise could i still run one?

Also on the rear set up. would limit straps in addition to all the other stuff be too much? also, should i keep the stock bump stops?

Concerning the front end, im doing a 3inch narrowed beam, I really like Aircooled.net's over the top style bar for my choice of a sway bar, has anyone here used one? are they genuine SAW? should i get the adjustable version, or non. or would another brand be better? i will be drivng the car hard....but it is my daily driver. thanks

kdf · Post by **kdf** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:06 am

ericsbracer wrote:A quick note if you choose to mount a CC.. weld some washers to the transmission mount. The fork-style mountings are not, I repeat, NOT Secure! I've had one remove itself heading into Turn 5 at Willow Springs, the force on the CC just leveraged it right off! Thanks to some very poor grading & maintenance, the resulting off-road excursion (at 40mph) destroyed the pan and my freshly restored 60 Bug was junk.

The above quote sums my opinion in camber compensators (CC's). I don't think they are very well engineered when compared to the Z-bar.

I have no experience in running a CC, but by looking how they are built and mounted you probably have to adjust the CC accordingly if raising the transmission or adjusting the ride height. And I'm not sure if they have the adjustability needed.

In swing axle cars limiting straps are a must in the rear to prevent the suspension from going to positive camber on the rear outside wheel, I haven't seen a race car without them. I'd suggest just trying limiting straps on your current setup, might be all you need for the rear. The only problem with limiting straps is that they cause inside rear wheel spin when you drive hard.

Keeping the stock bump stops is a question of how much you are going to lower it, with a 2inch tranny raise, you probably can't use them. We've just cut them to the height we have wanted.

Teeroy · Post by **Teeroy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:54 am

The over the top sway bar is not made by Sway Away, they are made by Whiteline (good product)

NOTW · Post by **NOTW** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:28 am

thanks for the info... so who makes a good limit strap? i've seen a set on cb's site, but thats about it. does whiteline manufacture these as well?

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:15 am

Use the Whiteline adjustable rear sway bar (with a matching front bar) with straps or flop stops. Forget the camber compensator. You will be happy with that set up.

NOTW · Post by **NOTW** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:24 am

reading through a bunch of material, alot of the articles suggested that the sway bar may actually worsen the possibility of having the rear load up and flipping the car over. i dont mean for this to start another endless debate over what methods better, so ill just ask you for your opinion on why you think a sway bar is superior to the camber compensator.

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:11 am

I have a strong opinion on this subject since I raced swing axels in the 80's and moved on to a better set up however this information applies to the street as well.

For safety always use a flop stop or limiting straps to keep away from the jacking effect (positive camber) which will help flip your car on the corner. There will never be any debate on this.

The (whiteline from aircooled.net) sway bar set up will beat the camber compensator as it works properly for your suspension. Some people seem have other opinions on this. If you have the money to try both then you decide but I'm trying to save you money and test time. Also I have seen 2 kinds of camber compensator that will fail under race conditions and if you are in a turn it isn't pretty. They usually pull loose or break in the middle. Have fun.

kdf · Post by **kdf** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:13 am

Brent Bousman wrote:The (whiteline from aircooled.net) sway bar set up will beat the camber compensator as it works properly for your suspension. Some people seem have other opinions on this.

I'd like to bring up the discussion of using a "regular" sway bar in the rear of a swing axle car. I have no experience in running one, but I've talked to two persons that have tested it on their swing axle cars, other one of them said that the car was oversteering and unpredictable to drive and the other said that it felt too dangerous to drive fast. Adding a sway bar in the rear should cause more jacking, and make the rear even stiffer when cornering. Even my computer model (that doesn't take into account suspension geometries) thinks that adding a sway bar is a bad idea.

I'm just wondering what other people's real world experience in this matter are. A to get a suspension to improve by adding a rear sway bar is if the suspension is way off it's optimum, like the vw stock suspension probably is, and there is some factor in suspension geometry that causes stiffening the rear to make the car handle better.

About the droop limiter, I don't know of a maker for droop limiters, we've always made them ourself. For a street car a solution using somekind of belts or other material that has a bit of flex might be the best solution to keep unpleasant noises from the droop limiter to a minimum. Using chains or other metallic limiters can cause the rear suspension to sound like church bells... Something I wouldn't like to listen to when driving over bumps.

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:28 am

Hopefully you noticed above where I said, "Use the Whiteline adjustable rear sway bar (with a matching front bar) ". This is important. Notice how your car came with no rear sway bar and a really skinny one up front?

Now you wouln't put a nice big fat sway bar on just the rear now would you? Hell yea it's going to oversteer. Remember get BOTH bars. If you get the adjustable ones even better.

If you can fabricate why not make a stop limiter with a piece of metal that looks sort of like a capital C with a hole drilled in it for a screw to fasten it to your existing stop. Sorry if that doesn't make sense. Look at how your spring plate hits the stop now and it's more obvious. Hope that helps.

NOTW · Post by **NOTW** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:29 am

ok, so how hard is getting the adjustable bars set up right.. im no guru at this stuff, im trying not to let everything go over my head. my original plan was to tinker with it until it felt right, is there a better way?. . .

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:57 am

There is not one adjustment setting that will work for everyone as your torsion bars, tire size, driving/racing habits etc have an effect on the weight transfer.

Basically I would start with a lighter setting (near end of bar) on the front and harder (away from end of bar) on the rear. This will help counter some understeer. It's pretty easy to adjust most adjustable sway bars as you just move the drop link to the next hole on the bar. Don't worry this adjustment is no where near as hard as jetting and tuning carbs!

The adjustable bars are good too if later you change torsion bar size, tire compound or tire size then you can change your setting to accommodate your suspension evolution.

bigGreen · Post by **bigGreen** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:02 pm

use a camber compensator and/ z-bar (same thing actually) to adjust your ride height. Adjusting the straps or z-bar shims will not affect the total spring rate.

you can fit the CB camber comp and keep your z-bar too.

All they do is add stiffness to the rear suspension without affecting the understeer/oversteer characterisc. A stiffer rear just helps reduce jacking which is what you're after. - In the same way that an IRS car seeks to limit body roll.

Body roll is not an issue since it has no effect whatsovever on a swing-axle car. You think 'weight transfer' causes trouble on a SA - you're wrong.

cheers, bigGreen

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:08 am

Do you think weight transfer or jacking on these 60's swing axel cars made them such horrible race cars?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... plindex=13

bigGreen · Post by **bigGreen** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:24 am

Simple anwer: no I don't.

Any 60's or 70's car going into that corner at those same speeds would tip onto its roof. The drivers obviously didn't know the circuit, and cars back then were about 10inches narrower than a modern car, simply making them far more likely to tip.

So nothing to do with swingaxles or weight transfer. Sorry.

And tip-over like you see in that video is caused by load transfer not weight transfer. The swingaxle VW beetle has a lot less weight transfer than a bug equiped with IRS.

And by the way, that's the trickiest corner on the world's most dangerous race track: Adenauer Forst on the 13 mile Nurburgring Nordschleife. If you search the net there's plenty of non-swingaxle 70's cars getting it wrong there and ending up on their roofs

I think one of those bugs may have been a 71 super beetle with IRS rear suspension. There's definitely another video out there clearly showing an IRS 1303 roll onto its roof there. And there's plenty of vids showing that infamous corner making mince meat of modern audis, porsches, bmw.

here's some videos with modern technology being made to look foolish at Adenauer Forst. Can't find the one showing the 1303 rollover
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ab1ujE6UA

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=tj-2PUUSYSg

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=jYaXdFcReRU

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:50 am

Nice video but it's missing all the swing axels trying to ride on their tops.

In your opinion if an amateur is given a stock SA bug and a stock IRS bug which one is he more likely to roll on a difficult corner?