Ok, I'm running late for a physics test today, going up the hill to the parking lot at about 30 and push the clutch in for the 2-3 change when CLUNK! goes the clutch.
The gearbox seems fine, as i am able to baby it from second into first, find a parking spot, and run in to take the test- barely on time!
The clutch does try to disengage but it doesn't work all the way, and makes a gross rattlerattlerattle when i try. Otherwise the motor and gears sound fine.
The cable and clutch hook are both brand new (only a few months ago, the hook snapped in rush hour on the 405-101 interchange on the way to go pick up a date- basically the worst time and place in the world for it to happen, hehe), so I know they're not the culprits.
My money's on a broken PP finger or the TO taking a crap. Can anyone confirm before I pull the motor?
Broken throw out bearing shaft.
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ToRy 70
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:00 pm
Broken throw out bearing shaft.
Last edited by ToRy 70 on Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ToRy 70
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:00 pm
Ok, I finally got some free time to pull the engine. Turns out it was the forks on the clutch lever, both were worn and one snapped at the bearing cradle.
I got a new lever, bushing kit, and TO bearing. I have some more questions:
1.) How do I get the clutch arm off the shaft? I took off a circlip and added some penetrant, it doesn't wanna budge. Any suggestions?
2.) Is the later style (71 and on) TO shaft thicker? The bushings I got from the shop are way bigger on the ID than the older style shaft I got to replace it. I think they're supposed to fit snugly, right? Not a big deal, no reason I probably can't use the old bushings.
3.) I wish I could take a picture of it, but the folks took the camera for the weekend. My pressure plate- is the weirdest looking thing I've seen. It has "Sachs" stamped on it, but it looks really different than any PP I've seen. It has three thick arms holding the center ring with spindly wire springs(?) on the sides of them, instead of the normal "finger" arrangement. Can anyone identify it and whether I should keep using it?
Thanks
I got a new lever, bushing kit, and TO bearing. I have some more questions:
1.) How do I get the clutch arm off the shaft? I took off a circlip and added some penetrant, it doesn't wanna budge. Any suggestions?
2.) Is the later style (71 and on) TO shaft thicker? The bushings I got from the shop are way bigger on the ID than the older style shaft I got to replace it. I think they're supposed to fit snugly, right? Not a big deal, no reason I probably can't use the old bushings.
3.) I wish I could take a picture of it, but the folks took the camera for the weekend. My pressure plate- is the weirdest looking thing I've seen. It has "Sachs" stamped on it, but it looks really different than any PP I've seen. It has three thick arms holding the center ring with spindly wire springs(?) on the sides of them, instead of the normal "finger" arrangement. Can anyone identify it and whether I should keep using it?
Thanks
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Bugfuel
- Posts: 3011
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:01 am
>1.) How do I get the clutch arm off the shaft? I took off a circlip and
>added some penetrant, it doesn't wanna budge. Any suggestions?
I have had to cut a slit on them before to release the bond of rust. Don't cut too deep, you may damage the bores it slides on. Cut deep enough to be able to drive a chisel into the groove and crack teh beast open a little.
If you can't cut, then use a small blowtorch to heat it up. It's a pain in the ass. Maybe a small puller would work there with some minor mods.
>3.) I wish I could take a picture of it, but the folks took the camera for
>the weekend. My pressure plate- is the weirdest looking thing I've seen.
>It has "Sachs" stamped on it, but it looks really different than any PP
>I've seen. It has three thick arms holding the center ring with spindly
>wire springs(?) on the sides of them, instead of the normal "finger"
>arrangement. Can anyone identify it and whether I should keep using it?
Sounds like a normal 3-finger type to me.
Jan
>added some penetrant, it doesn't wanna budge. Any suggestions?
I have had to cut a slit on them before to release the bond of rust. Don't cut too deep, you may damage the bores it slides on. Cut deep enough to be able to drive a chisel into the groove and crack teh beast open a little.
If you can't cut, then use a small blowtorch to heat it up. It's a pain in the ass. Maybe a small puller would work there with some minor mods.
>3.) I wish I could take a picture of it, but the folks took the camera for
>the weekend. My pressure plate- is the weirdest looking thing I've seen.
>It has "Sachs" stamped on it, but it looks really different than any PP
>I've seen. It has three thick arms holding the center ring with spindly
>wire springs(?) on the sides of them, instead of the normal "finger"
>arrangement. Can anyone identify it and whether I should keep using it?
Sounds like a normal 3-finger type to me.
Jan
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Bruce2
- Posts: 7105
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am
I've used a 2 arm puller before. Mine has a point on the end of the screw, so I usually drill a small divot in the shaft to keep the screw centered.
Usually tapping it off works. It's a little difficult to swing a hammer behind the arm, but it should move.
Do not be tempted to hammer on the shaft, you will mushroom the end, forever preventing you from gettin it off.
If this doesn't work for you, and you can get a helper, use two large screwdrivers to pry the arm out while a helper uses a centerpunch and hammer to hit the shaft in. You must use a punch to avoid musrooming the shaft.
Usually tapping it off works. It's a little difficult to swing a hammer behind the arm, but it should move.
Do not be tempted to hammer on the shaft, you will mushroom the end, forever preventing you from gettin it off.
If this doesn't work for you, and you can get a helper, use two large screwdrivers to pry the arm out while a helper uses a centerpunch and hammer to hit the shaft in. You must use a punch to avoid musrooming the shaft.
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Bugfuel
- Posts: 3011
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:01 am
Had I realized this 20 years ago.... grrr....Bruce2 wrote:Do not be tempted to hammer on the shaft, you will mushroom the end, forever preventing you from gettin it off.
If this doesn't work for you, and you can get a helper, use two large screwdrivers to pry the arm out while a helper uses a centerpunch and hammer to hit the shaft in. You must use a punch to avoid musrooming the shaft.
Jan
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Bruce2
- Posts: 7105
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am
Don't worry, you're not alone. Guess how I know not to do that?Bugfuel wrote:Had I realized this 20 years ago.... grrr....Bruce2 wrote:Do not be tempted to hammer on the shaft, you will mushroom the end, forever preventing you from gettin it off.
If this doesn't work for you, and you can get a helper, use two large screwdrivers to pry the arm out while a helper uses a centerpunch and hammer to hit the shaft in. You must use a punch to avoid musrooming the shaft.
Jan
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ToRy 70
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:00 pm
Wow. This is a bigger pain in the ass than I would have imagined.
I got the arm off with the help of a small puller, no sweat.
Unfortunately, trying to hammer it off (from before) tweaked the bushings to such a point that they wouldn't come out of the trans (yes, I removed the screw in the back). I cut the shaft in half with a muffler cutter to get it all out.
The bushing kit WAS wrong, so I went back to the shop and got the right one ( not to mention they also gave me the wrong TO bearing earlier, too).
Unfortunatley, this kit is a joke. The grease trappers wouldn't fit and had molding excess all over them. I used my old ones instead. Instead of brass, the outer bushing is aluminum.It seemed just a bit large, but I put a washer and socket wrench on it to tap it into place anyway. Now it's thrashed to a point where it won't go in all the way, and it certainly isn't coming out.
The empi (should have set off alarm bells) TO shaft won't go into the other side far enough to center the TO bearing around the input shaft without binding like crazy.
Can someone offer some advice? I'm about to cut this one in half too!
I got the arm off with the help of a small puller, no sweat.
Unfortunately, trying to hammer it off (from before) tweaked the bushings to such a point that they wouldn't come out of the trans (yes, I removed the screw in the back). I cut the shaft in half with a muffler cutter to get it all out.
The bushing kit WAS wrong, so I went back to the shop and got the right one ( not to mention they also gave me the wrong TO bearing earlier, too).
Unfortunatley, this kit is a joke. The grease trappers wouldn't fit and had molding excess all over them. I used my old ones instead. Instead of brass, the outer bushing is aluminum.It seemed just a bit large, but I put a washer and socket wrench on it to tap it into place anyway. Now it's thrashed to a point where it won't go in all the way, and it certainly isn't coming out.
The empi (should have set off alarm bells) TO shaft won't go into the other side far enough to center the TO bearing around the input shaft without binding like crazy.
Can someone offer some advice? I'm about to cut this one in half too!
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Bruce2
- Posts: 7105
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am
It won't be a great loss, they're cheap enough. Nice to know EMPI is living up to their reputation!ToRy 70 wrote: Can someone offer some advice? I'm about to cut this one in half too!
My preference is to use old used cross shafts. Then I weld the arms all around. This way the shaft is guaranteed to fit.
You will have to try to push out the damaged bushing and try again with a new one. Ask your supplier if they can get a bronze bushing. They exist, I don't know where from. What I do is to clean out the bore in the case for the bushing of all the corrosion until it can slide in by hand. Sometimes you will have to sand the ID to get it to go in.
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ToRy 70
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:00 pm
Well...
There's a right way and a quick way to do things, and I did the quick way. If I have problems again soon I acknowledge that it's completely my fault.
I managed to pound the aluminum bushing in about 1/8" away from where it "homes". The last bit on the outside is mangled, but the bushing inside is nice and SNUG. I put the set screw back in the trans, but I don't think I even need it.
The empi TO shaft ended up a little too left for my liking, so I bent the forks just enough to be more centered around the input shaft.
I thought I was done until I went to install the TO and clips. Wow, these are really hard to install! Turns out the empi forks have more meat than they should. I used the muffler cutter to carefully grind the "V"s on the back deeper, about 1/8". Now they fit.
Everything moved freely without binding, so I buttoned her up. I've been driving the car for the past week with absolutely no problems, noises, or chatter. It feels brand new and the clutch is very easy yet firm. I think I'm set.
If this comes up again you can bet I'll go with a german shaft. The only reason why I didn't weld this one up myself was because I cut it just to get it out
Thanks for all the advice guys. And as if we needed more testimony: EMPI SUCKS.
There's a right way and a quick way to do things, and I did the quick way. If I have problems again soon I acknowledge that it's completely my fault.
I managed to pound the aluminum bushing in about 1/8" away from where it "homes". The last bit on the outside is mangled, but the bushing inside is nice and SNUG. I put the set screw back in the trans, but I don't think I even need it.
The empi TO shaft ended up a little too left for my liking, so I bent the forks just enough to be more centered around the input shaft.
I thought I was done until I went to install the TO and clips. Wow, these are really hard to install! Turns out the empi forks have more meat than they should. I used the muffler cutter to carefully grind the "V"s on the back deeper, about 1/8". Now they fit.
Everything moved freely without binding, so I buttoned her up. I've been driving the car for the past week with absolutely no problems, noises, or chatter. It feels brand new and the clutch is very easy yet firm. I think I'm set.
If this comes up again you can bet I'll go with a german shaft. The only reason why I didn't weld this one up myself was because I cut it just to get it out
Thanks for all the advice guys
. And as if we needed more testimony: EMPI SUCKS.-
david58
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:14 pm
dan macmillan wrote:The forks are different. Early ones have a semicircle cutout for the bearing. No centering tube.
61-70 17mm shaft
Later ones are flater with a reverse curve where the bearing sits.
Used with centering tube.
71-10/72 17mm shaft
Centering tube 71-79
After 10/72 the shaft gets bigger.
11/72-79 20mm shaft
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ToRy 70
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:00 pm
Title changed to a more searchable entry per request of david58.
As a follow up, the empi throw-out shaft with the mangled bushing in there is holding up fine. About a year ago (so about a year after replacement), I started hearing noises again, and the clutch got worse and worse. I thought I was going to have to revisit this nightmare, but when the engine came out it revealed itself to be the pressure plate finally taking a crap: the centering ring had fallen off and the clips holding one of the three arms were destroyed. I should have replaced it last time because it was so ancient, but I cheaped out. New sachs PP on there now, and all is smooth sailing.
As a follow up, the empi throw-out shaft with the mangled bushing in there is holding up fine. About a year ago (so about a year after replacement), I started hearing noises again, and the clutch got worse and worse. I thought I was going to have to revisit this nightmare, but when the engine came out it revealed itself to be the pressure plate finally taking a crap: the centering ring had fallen off and the clips holding one of the three arms were destroyed. I should have replaced it last time because it was so ancient, but I cheaped out. New sachs PP on there now, and all is smooth sailing.