Looking for DETAILED Type 4 build combos

[Lo Cash John]

Guys,

There's a strong possibility I may go down the Type 4 road in the coming year or two. I have a 69 Ghia purchased for my son's first car and I want to put a peppy but RELIABLE motor in it. I have a 1.7 Type 4 motor stashed away in a buddy's garage and I may have access to a 2.0 from a mid/late 70's bus. If I go Type 4, my plans are a Joe Cali upright conversion, dual Kads or 40mm Dells, and a hand built Sebring style header.

My goals are a cool running motor he can drive somewhat like a modern car (70+ on the highway), he can help build and fab the parts, learn regular maintenance and not need to be rebuilt at the end of each school year.

Assuming I go with a 1.7 as my basis, what are some DETAILED build combos to meet my goals? I don't mind spending a little cash on a cranks, pistons and some mild heads.

If I get a 2.0 as my basis, same questions.

[Piledriver]

(if bullet proof is #1 on the priority list)

If the cam, lifters & rod bearings look OK on the 1.7 and the compression is good, run it until it dies after having the heads freshened up with new exhaust valves, other work as needed.
(once you pull the jugs the cam is visible, and you can pull the lifters without even pulling the heads, do not mix)
I have seen that the ex valve stems "shrink" with age, probably due to heat cycling and stretching...
The guide play is frequently in spec with a fresh set of ex valves.

The stock cam works pretty good on a 1.7 or even 1.8... it just doesn't work so well on 2L.

Note that may last many, many years, the last one I did like that went another ~350K miles, and it didn't really die, was just making really funny noises as the cam thrust bearing was ~gone.

The main bearings were reused on my current setup in the same block, as it all checked out fine with a fresher crank.

The 1.7l bottom end may be in fine shape aside from the cam and cam bearings, don't just toss the main bearings, they may have another 300K in them.

Reuse the stock oil pump is the free play is OK. Seriously. It fits better than anything you can buy.

If you decide to rebuild:
1911cc, 2L register cut 1.7 heads, if they pass the "bake and shake" test, with decent valve job, 911 adjusters with std mods, and a solid rocker spacers kit on 8mm studs.

If you can swing it, KB slugs and cylinders setup from Jake, pay him to also have jugs trimmed to stock length, as they aren't.

The case may need decked, check before jug order as you can have the jugs cut to spec so you end up with .75 to 1mm deck.

Use his double thrust std cam bearings of his HD thrust bearing setup ($) the thrust is ~the only thing that wears.
(aircooled.net IIRC also sells the double thrust T4 sets)

Get a cam kit from Jake or John as well, a 494@104 or so (or Jakes split durationl variant) works out well with the CR with a 1mm deck and ~53cc chambers. An 86 or 86a is also an option, depending on driving style, and may be easier on the valvetrain.

[Lo Cash John]

Thanks for the response!

No matter what if I use the 1.7 or possible 2.0 as the basis for the motor, I'll split the case and give it a full rebuild. Based on your info I'll take a close look at the old bearings as I pull them from the case.


If going with the 1.7, are there any issues with the stock rods other than being heavy? I have no problem getting a mild stroker crank with Type 1 rod journals. Of course if I don't NEED to get a different crank and rods, that's money saved for good heads (everybody like a good head job right??)

What are the do's and don'ts of Type 4 piston & cylinder kits? Also are most P&C kits available with 22mm and 24mm wrist pins?

[Piledriver]

The 1.8 rods are not like the 2.0 rods, which look like they belonged in a diesel.

IIRC Wally ran stock 1.7/1.8 rods in his 2200 beast for quite some time, probably with better bolts and lightened.
(I'm sure he will correct me if I didn't RC)
I like a stiff crank, the rod bearings last forever on 1.7s.
(The 1.7 bottom end is almost bombproof)

T1 rods on a welded 66 (std) stroke T4 crank with T1 Mahle Bs is almost bolt together, the deck ~works out, just needs a mm or so of base shim. The logic of that combo is debatable unless you are building a high RPM screamer.

Most shelf "T4" pistons are 24mm pin.

I have found the biggest performance gain is by having a running motor in the car, and driving it.

If it's a 914 motor with the domed pistons, I'd try it as-is with the 40s and a decent header.

[70dragbug]

Hi John,
I would rather go with the 1.7 as a basis.Usually the cases are in better condition.The bus cases usually need more work or are often junk due to detonation issues common with a bus.A nice engine that I built was based on the 1.7 case and 1.7 heads:

stock valves 37.5 x 33
scat HD single springs
mild porting
9.5:1 compression
OEM 94mm cylinders with 914 2 liter pistons from Mahle
stock rods and crank,balanced and rebushed
215mm flywheel lightened
webcam 86a
webcam mechanical lifters (100g)
stock pushrods
stock oil pump
dual 40 idf webers on BAS short manifolds
911 style cooling
Bosch 009 with ignitor
BAS 21152 header and exhaust

Never had it dynoed,but it did 0-60 in 7 seconds and was good for 200km/h with a 1303s trans and all steel/stock body full interior beetle (1200 beetle).Very reliable,fun and somewhat economical.If I was to build the engine again I would probably go with AA 96mm P+C and a Schleicher 316° cam and a lighter flywheel.

[Clatter]

One thing about the T4 vs. T1 is that the OG parts can often be re-used.
Design of a motor to go the distance is done very differently.

The cranks, esp 1.7/1.8 are really thick and strong.
there's no need for an aftermarket crank top keep them from pounding out the center main.
because the mains are bigger, and the aluminum case is cross-bolted, only a very serious motor needs a counterweighted/stroker crank.
Totally different than the T1. People are statting to grab a counterweighted stoker even if they are using a 34 PICT it seems these days.

Also, the OG german made KS or Mahle PC sets are better than anything made and sold today for a reliable driver.
The aftermarket gives you Chinese AA or nice KB (preferrably in OG cyls) or forged super hi-po stuff.
A hone and re-ring of the OG PC sets can often be the best bet.
And there are those of the school who say save the wear, just clean them up and run 'em...
Those true forged german sets with the expansion plates, they are so nice...
Everybody is in the habit of just throwing them away, right?
I always did, because the good stuff was still around.

Oil pumps are now too small to fit the case hole.
Got an old Schadek form the 90s or earlier?
no?
then run that pump that came with the car, no mods needed...

Spend the money on heads if you want to do what you can.
Send the 1.7 heads off to Adrian for some 42 x 36 valves and a full rebuild.
if you are rich, have them ported and polished.
You might like having them for when you go bigger in the future.
Otherwise, do it like Pile did.
i have a set with just new valves put in, and he's right, the guides are now much tighter on the new valves.

maybe find some 1.8 or 2.0 cores for him to do.

or upgrade the exhaust even more.

but, really, a crank, rods, etc would be a total waste of money, unless you put a BIG exhaust on, big heads, etc..

If the heads were 42 x 36, then a Web 494 would be fun.
it might need dual springs if beaten by a high school kid.

Despite being slightly weaker, if your 2.0 crank and rods is in better shape (unlikely) than there's some free displacement.
you will want better bolts for them if they are to be abused.

Also beware of main bearings these days.
Even if your carnk is ground perfectly, and line bore is to spec,
The OD and ID of bearings will be wrong, and clearances/crush will be wrong.
if you do put new mains in, have the crank ground and the line bore done to match the bearings.
or, use the OG stuff...

it's a different game now, unfortunately.
the parts have gone to poop on us, so re-using the old stuff is often a better way to go.

but, hey, it's cheaper and more fun that way, right?
like engine building was always done in the old old days...

[theKbStockpiler]

There are no premade aftermarket rods for the 1.7/1.8. Custom rods are from $800 to about $1200. All produciton stroker cranks do not use the 1.7/1.8 journal size because of this. So your 55mm rods (big end) are only good for a stock stroke of 66mm. Otherwise the piston will hit the crank. Small journal Buick/Porsche 2.0 style allow more room for a larger stroke but are not as strong. Most people state that you will never miss the 1.7/1.8 size journal. You can have DPR make a crank for you so that type 1 rods will fit but you have to go with a high quality piston manufacture and this will run about $800 for Pistons, cylinders ,pins and rings, not really a bad deal but an investment. So you are stuck with either a 1.9 build with a stock crank ,rods and 96mm barrels or the next step is a stroker 2.3? with Buick/Porsche 2.0 style crank and rods. Some of the big strokers turn the case into a mess so I would say the 2.3 is somewhat reasonable for a street engine. I think the differences in these two builds will help you decide which side of the fence you are on. It's going to get expensive if you go past the 1.9 build.

[Lo Cash John]

Thanks for all the input!

Since this will be for my son and a first car I'll stick with the 96mm P&C option. If I get a 2.0 as a donor I may consider using that crank and rods in the 1.7 case with the 1.7 heads unless the 2.0 stuff looks better. He doesn't need a monster motor to get in trouble with.

I suspect a 1911 or 2056 with dual K-duds or a single SU HS-8 will make enough power for him.

[Piledriver]

FWIW a stock 1700 914/411 motor was factory rated at 82 HP, a set of dual carbs and a real exhaust and it should be close to 100 CHP with a good tune and reasonable cam. It was almost perfect from the factory IMHO.

It runs really nice, so unless those stock 90mm P&L are toast, they should be able to find another home.

A 2L Bus motor (same size valves, lower cr, smaller slightly curved ports) produced a whopping 68 HP.

The 96s will move the tq band down and need more cam but expect about the same ballpark HP out.

[Lo Cash John]

FWIW a stock 1700 914/411 motor was factory rated at 82 HP, a set of dual carbs and a real exhaust and it should be close to 100 CHP with a good tune and reasonable cam.

Now that's something to think about.

[theKbStockpiler]

Used 2.0 914 engines go for more than twice of a 1.7 in my locale. If the intake manifold only has 3 bolts and they don't know what they have got , buy it quick. The value is all in the heads.Bus heads are not the same unfortunately.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-914-912 ... 0667660292

[NextGen]

1.7 is a great engine, that with a mild cam and headers alone make a great street machine. Totally differnet then a 1.7 -T-1 . Actually one of the guys on this forum said his 1.7 T-4 blew away his son's 2.0 T-1.

If it has the prized domed pistons you will really have a winner that will give good gas milage and last. I found my 1.7 to be more responsive then my 2.0 monster.

But I do alot of long highway driving and the 2.0 is perfect for a 75 to 80 mph cruiser.

John it is great to have you here, you have been around all the News Groups for years, if you go T-4 it will be nice to have you in the T-4 corner and explain your experiances to the T-1 guys. Only till your drive a T-4 powered car do you understand. Your son's Ghia will turn into a Porsche. Perfect car with that wide engine compartment.

[supaninja]

Here is the type 4 setup that I have in my notch:

2L bus engine core
1.7L heads, bored, and rebuilt, HD single springs
Raby 9550 cam and matching lifters, 911 swivels, chromoly push rods
30mm oil pump (came in the core more motor)
sh1tty exhaust
home brewed 40mm ITB's with megasquirt 1 controlling the EFI and ignition
stock cooling
sh1tty chinese 200mm flywheel and a stock type 1 clutch
stock dished pistons, re-rung, and stock cyl's lightly honed

I got over 13,000 miles on it in the last 18 months, it makes maybe 100whp but is a total blast to drive and super reliable.

[nsracing]

Any of the Type IV platforms will be great. The best heads are from Porsche 914 2.0L. I would not change out any of the any internals in the motors. The stock forms are as reliable as can be. By all means do porting, balancing and stuff. You want something completely reliable for his first car. You can always hobby shop an engine later once he gets more experience w/ it. IMO.

[Placerpuma]

1.7 is a great engine, that with a mild cam and headers alone make a great street machine.

X2

If you are on a budget and the Ghia is not show quality, have you considered to install the engine in its flat cooling style ?
Before everybody jumps on me, some of the first Type 4 conversions were Ghia's, it fits nice with some light sheet metal removal, google it.

1.7 is a great engine to start with, my brother's 1.7 Ghia ran almost the same eighth mile time as my 2.0 Puma, he had a much better exhaust header at the time. About ten seconds in eighth mile, if memory serves right.

Good luck with your project.