Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

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tmbryhn
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Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by tmbryhn » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:31 pm

Hi!

I'm starting out on the speclist for a new 1915cc "hot" street engine w. EFi. Hoping for between 130-140 FWHP.

Will be running a DPR CW crank and CB Uni-techs and the plan is to set the rev.-limiter to 6500 rpm for longevity and keeping it on the safe side.
I feel that 40x35.5mm valves are just right for this engine, but is open for 42x37.5 also. Going to run alu.-pushrods for keeping the valve train mass down.

The Web 86B or FK-8 looks interesting because of the large diff. between advertised and actual duration. Seems like these are more gentle on the valve train than eg. a Web 109 (260/287deg). Any input there?

What is your take on spring pressure in the valveseat and @ max lift for these cams? Achievable with single springs? 28/31mm lifter?
Can it be run with stock style helical cam gear?

Thanks for the input guys :-)

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slowsixtyduece
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by slowsixtyduece » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:02 am

130/140 hp shouldn't be extremely hard to achieve with those cams but it will depend a lot on the heads and other components of the motor. The reality is that it may produce those numbers at a little higher rpm than you are shooting for, but not by much. Both of those cams should have no issue taking the 1915 to 7k depending on your other components. I'm not sure if you want that or not. I can say, my last motor was a 1915 with a FK8 cam, 42x37 heads, 48 Ida's and it was a blast. It would run mid 13s on radials at 1000 ft asl. The only thing that sometimes bothered me was that the powerband came on strong at around 3300 rpm which made it a little less fun to putt around with. I just wanted more torque I guess.

FK8 and 86b will be more gentle on the cam allowing the rockers to do much of the lifting. This in my opinion is more of a personal preference since there are people on both sides of the "cam ramp aggressiveness spectrum" who have strong and reliable running motors. Not sure what case you will be running but you may consider sleeving your lifter bores with any of these cams if you are running a mag case.

I would talk to your head porter about spring pressures as he will probably be providing the springs with your heads. Ask him what his springs are set up at and you can Tell him what cam you have chosen and he can set up spring shims and seat pressure for you . I would be hesitant to run single HD springs with either of those cams. You could do beehive springs? 28mm lifter should be fine but more importantly, use the lifter that is best suited to the cam. Web cam recommends using their lifter which are supposedly scat Lifters, engle recommends their HD lifters but you can also use cb lightweights depending on cam blank used. Also, the HD Alu push rods are great- quiet motor and a little lighter valve train for sure.

Valve sizes are something to discuss but more importantly, who will be porting your heads? A good porter can get a 40x35 head to flow as good as a mediocre 42x37, all the while keeping port velocity high for low end driving.

Sounds like you are off to a great start! And efi will help with all around drivability on a stock stroke motor. I love running my efi, more complex to start out with but so much simpler to just drive once it's setupz

tmbryhn
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by tmbryhn » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:29 am

Thank you for a great answer!

I have been tinkering with T1-engines for about eight yeras. My last 1915 on EFi with 40x35.5 043s and Web 109 made 176Nm and 121.5hp @ the wheels in a dynapack.
I'm designing my own ECUs from scratch, so EFi is home territory. Carbs are a thing of the mast for my part ;-)

As you can probably imagine, I'm the DIY type of guy. I therefore do all the head work myself. I have my own mill and lathe, and love that kind of work to :-)
I don't have a flow bench, but the latest numbers I got on the previous 1915cc tells me that my porting at least is not terribly sucky, haha!
Gotta sacrifice some of the VE potential with having done the work yourself, yeah?

Since I don't use a head porter, I needed direct advise on the seat pressure.
I will be running a stock mag case, but would rather skip the lifter sleeves if I could avoid it. That's why I looked at those cams.
Interesting with those beehive springs. Can you direct me to any? I also appreciate the input on the lifters. I'm using Pierside parts as my supplier, so a set of CB lifters should not be too hard to get. To be honest, I have never though about matching the lifter and cam brand together, as long as the quality is alright.
What about lube-a-lobe lifters?
Any input on using the stock type helical cam gear?

Maybe a Web 86A would be a better alternative if I would like to set the limiter at 6.5k? What can I expect there do you think?

I have also looked at some cheaper 1.4:1 rockers for those ratio cams. Any reason these won't work? I'm doing the HVX mods btw:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130882891478

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Clatter
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by Clatter » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:49 am

I have an 86b with 40 x 35.5 and 9.4:1CR.
With 44 Webers and 1 5/8" exhaust, it's still pretty tractable around town.

it came apart after a few thousand miles for stupid reasons,
But the lifter bores were OK in my mag case.

FWIW,
If you are wondering that the 86b is too much cam for the street,
IMHO, it's not.
What's that Noise??

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

tmbryhn
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by tmbryhn » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:00 pm

Cool! Thanks for the input. That feels i bit more reassuring. What kind of valve springs and pushrods were you running on that engine? What redline?
My primary concern with the 86A is the fact that it only lifts 11.9mm or 0.468" with 1.4:1 rockers. That's simply to little with 40mm intake IMO.
What do you think?

What do you guys think about the above rocker kit?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130882891478

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Clatter
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by Clatter » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:32 am

My set-up is using Manton chromoly pushrods and standard Bugpack dual springs.
Did the testing of spring pressure at installed height and all that;
Forgot exactly what the numbers were.
There was plenty of room before coil-bind, so I threw a set of thick shims in there and ran it.

The Bugpacks showed quite a bit more pressure than the standard Scat duals at the time.

My rockers are the China copies of the Autocraft 1.4s.
Latest Rage brand AFAICT.
The roller-bearing type that everyone likes to hate..
(Like Kona does in the add you linked :) )
I shimmed them up carefully to keep the oil pressure up in them,
Then filed a small spray groove that points at the lash cap.
Kind of like the 'bulletin' VW put out with the connecting rods in type 4s..
Hoover mods would likely help this a lot.
Can't help but think the VW engineers drilled clear through the stock rockers for a reason.
Plus, with the 'dry side up' using ratio rockers, it can't hurt, right?
Those 1.4s in your add look worth trying.
If they break, you will likely just lose power.
it's not like using a cheap valve or something where catastrophic damage would result, right?
Just approach China parts at a fraction of the cost of the real thing with reasonable expectations/caution...
(I'm brave like that :lol: )

My heads are German 040s with professionally done non-welded 'oval' ports.
Old school artistry by BRE, actually.
The manifolds are ported all the way up.
(to 36 vents BTW)
A lot of head vs. what typical 'non-welded oval-port 40 x 35.5' heads would be today straight from a CNC, dig?
Maybe that's why the 86b has worked as well as it has for me?

WRT RPM, I had a 5.5K chip in it for a while to break it in and shake it out.
Was fun enough down low that I forgot to take it out for a long time..
A 6K one went in, and way more fun, and had a lot more left for sure.
I banged it against the limiter again and again and it never showed any hint of float.
When it came apart it the guides and valve job were like brand new.
Never got around to going 6.5K, (or7) or taking it to the track or dyno or anything..
So maybe that's why i'm still so in love with it..?

So,
I'm really just like one of those guys like on TOS who say "gee it ran great",
without any real data/numbers..

FWIW.. :D
What's that Noise??

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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Paul H
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by Paul H » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:35 am

This is a 1914cc turbo spec engine with an 86a and 7.8 cr -42x37 044 heads with an 86b and more CR then 160hp could be acheivable
Real parts=Real Performance-Get Real
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andy198712
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by andy198712 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:33 pm

i run a 86B but in a 2110, 9.3:1
if anything it could do with a bigger cam as its pretty hard hitting low down, can't be sloppy with the foot work!

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Paul H
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by Paul H » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:03 am

An 86b in a 2276/2332 is good to 8000rpm. If the engine isn't happy up there then it's an air flow issue, ports too small,valves too small,not enough volume in the inlet tract , too small a venturi or throttle bore
Real parts=Real Performance-Get Real
Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance (Plato).

farmer
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by farmer » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:29 am

Remember, he´s talking a street engine, not a full blown race engine. So "8000 rpm ports" is probably not what he wants. Allthough I really like the 86B I would be tempted to use the FK8 in a 1914 street engine, because the FK8 is after all 6 degrees less duration if memory serves. IRL that means that the engine will begin to pull a couple of hundred rpms earlier. That could come in handy with relatively little displacement. With good heads I agree, 140 hp is easily obtainable.
I would NOT go 42 x 37,5 because this set up usually has a little too efficient exhaust side, which is good for rpm power, but not so good for usable torque, especially not down low, unless the cam is advanced to a low ILC. (If it was a larger displacement like a 2275 the tendency sort of elliminates itself to some extend dependant on the intake port of course.)
This is a 1914 that i bult a couple of years ago, with my own version of a Web 110, which is basically the same as if you used a set of 1,25 rockers on the intake, just about the best heads that I can port for this application 1½" CSP Super comp and 40 Dells. http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1205306.jpg
For comparison I built an exact copy of this engine last year, only I used a 74 mm crankshaft. The added 70 cc displacement made the engine pull hard from under 2000 rpm, peak with 147 hp @ 5800 and pull a solid 210 Nm torque at 3850 rpm. (At this point the exhaust is all used up) The 1914 has a noticeable point at 2300 rpm where you can feel that "now comes the power"
This only to illustrate how even small changes can make large differences.

T

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Paul H
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by Paul H » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:56 am

farmer wrote:Remember, he´s talking a street engine, not a full blown race engine. So "8000 rpm ports" is probably not what he wants. Allthough I really like the 86B I would be tempted to use the FK8 in a 1914 street engine, because the FK8 is after all 6 degrees less duration if memory serves. IRL that means that the engine will begin to pull a couple of hundred rpms earlier. That could come in handy with relatively little displacement. With good heads I agree, 140 hp is easily obtainable.
I would NOT go 42 x 37,5 because this set up usually has a little too efficient exhaust side, which is good for rpm power, but not so good for usable torque, especially not down low, unless the cam is advanced to a low ILC. (If it was a larger displacement like a 2275 the tendency sort of elliminates itself to some extend dependant on the intake port of course.)
This is a 1914 that i bult a couple of years ago, with my own version of a Web 110, which is basically the same as if you used a set of 1,25 rockers on the intake, just about the best heads that I can port for this application 1½" CSP Super comp and 40 Dells. http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1205306.jpg
For comparison I built an exact copy of this engine last year, only I used a 74 mm crankshaft. The added 70 cc displacement made the engine pull hard from under 2000 rpm, peak with 147 hp @ 5800 and pull a solid 210 Nm torque at 3850 rpm. (At this point the exhaust is all used up) The 1914 has a noticeable point at 2300 rpm where you can feel that "now comes the power"
This only to illustrate how even small changes can make large differences.

T
Well he did say
if anything it could do with a bigger cam as its pretty hard hitting low down
I just answered that
I'll be doing a dyno comparison later this year on a 2180 78.4x94 engine with Ultramag 44x37 heads FK10
Carbs v Efi
I want to test the 40 Dells just to see the maximum hp they can acheive-not sure what vents they have but I'll check them for sure they'll be jetted to perfection and fitted with ram pipes -then sold ! :wink:
Real parts=Real Performance-Get Real
Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance (Plato).

farmer
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by farmer » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:11 pm

Oh, I was referring to the OP´s 1914, not the 2110.

With the 40 Dells. I don´t know the limit. I do know that 155-157 hp is realtively easy obtainable. But wouls certainly be interesting to see a comparison.

T

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Paul H
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by Paul H » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:45 am

I don't do much with carbs but the two engines I have tested fitted with 44IDFs were way down on power compared to similar motors fitted with EFi . Looking at just peak power is only part of the story as even the small throttle bodies flow way more air and the power just keeps going. I'm expecting 175hp from the 2180 with 45mm throttles and I don't expect much more than 135hp from the Dells and thats without the belt at the flywheel
Real parts=Real Performance-Get Real
Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance (Plato).

farmer
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by farmer » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:20 pm

If the difference turns out to be 40hp or thereabouts something is definitely wrong. Like stated already 40 Dells supports 155 hp WITH belt without too much trouble. I have pulled 170 hp without belt on a 2056 type 4 and through slightly modified 40 Dells. These engines are actually rather driveable and will take roundabouts in third down to 1500 rpm without objections. (I have built 3 that are similar apart from exhaust and 2 degrees lsa)
But naturally, if the engine can breathe it, 45 TB´s would be able to release a good deal extra power and some driveability. 45 TB´s can support way over 200 hp.

T

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Paul H
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Re: Web 86B / FK-8, 1915cc w. EFi

Post by Paul H » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:26 pm

We shall see what happens. I'll fit the EGTs to each exhaust port just to make sure the carbs are not faulty and lay the injector duty cycle on the power graph for the EFi to confirm the dyno accuracy. A standard fan belt on a type 1 with an alternator takes about 12hp at 6000rpm and more at higher RPM
Real parts=Real Performance-Get Real
Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance (Plato).

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