Going under the knife
- GS guy
- Posts: 909
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
For a good bond and seal, the tubing contact surfaces will need to be cleaned very thoroughly. Mildly abraded using a wire brush like you're prepping copper to solder. Even then, getting any kind of non-wicking type of sealant (like an epoxy) to form a 100% seal with one tube sliding inside another would be extremely lucky, at least in my experience. Any hair-line open path will ruin you day. A low viscosity epoxy would wick better, but might also just drain towards the bottom during curing leaving voids on top and puddle inside the tube. Just seems sketchy at best.
With the cleaning necessary I'd be more inclined to use a high-silver content solder and put together like a copper pipe joint. If you can get the outer tube heated far back enough, no problem letting the solder wick into and seal the two parts together. Remember, solder moves/wicks towards the heat source - not away from it. Ideally you'd heat at the inner end (inside the tunnel), but I think concentrating the heat at the bulkhead would work.
I picked up this Sta-Brite kit to attach a barrel end on my throttle cable, I think it would work very well in this situation:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0089 ... UTF8&psc=1
If you do commit to the epoxy trick, do a test piece first that you can pressure test. You only get one shot on the real item!
With the cleaning necessary I'd be more inclined to use a high-silver content solder and put together like a copper pipe joint. If you can get the outer tube heated far back enough, no problem letting the solder wick into and seal the two parts together. Remember, solder moves/wicks towards the heat source - not away from it. Ideally you'd heat at the inner end (inside the tunnel), but I think concentrating the heat at the bulkhead would work.
I picked up this Sta-Brite kit to attach a barrel end on my throttle cable, I think it would work very well in this situation:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0089 ... UTF8&psc=1
If you do commit to the epoxy trick, do a test piece first that you can pressure test. You only get one shot on the real item!
Last edited by GS guy on Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Max Welton
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
Two tests then. I've epoxied two inches of sleeve into some 5/16". Later when it's cured I will carefully cut the outer tube without nicking the inner sleeve. Should have done that first. Tonight it can soak in a jar of gas and tomorrow I'll put pressure to it.
I'm on my way to get some silver solder and flux to set up the second test.
Max
I'm on my way to get some silver solder and flux to set up the second test.
Max
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- Max Welton
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- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
Well the solder test was a fail. Using liquid and then paste flux the solder just beaded up and ran off when I tried to cover the insert tube. Is it possible the solder won't work with aluminum? Hmpf.
So I set up a test. I welded some 5/16th to a bit of scrap to simulate the situation in the car. Turns out I didn't blow through the 5/16th like the guy that did the car so I cut a nice leak with the Dremel.
Video:
https://youtu.be/b3f3qop25yE
Edit: video replaced.
Max
So I set up a test. I welded some 5/16th to a bit of scrap to simulate the situation in the car. Turns out I didn't blow through the 5/16th like the guy that did the car so I cut a nice leak with the Dremel.
Video:
https://youtu.be/b3f3qop25yE
Edit: video replaced.
Max
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Last edited by Max Welton on Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- GS guy
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- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
Uh Max - solder doesn't work on aluminum! Yea, I once tried to "weld" aluminum to steel - that definitely didn't work! Steel, copper, brass and likely the Nicopp stuff (though I personally haven't tried it on Nicopp), with the correct acid flux will take solder just fine - ALA the surfaces are properly cleaned and prepped.
There is a type of solder rod that can be used on aluminum (only aluminum) and it works pretty well, though behaves a bit differently in the molten stage than regular solder - but it does a good job of joining low stress joints on aluminum parts.
Interested in hearing how your epoxy fix works out - may have to run a drill bit internally once it sets to clear out the build-up inside. I see now how you want to use the sleeve to just seal up the pinhole, not actually extend the tube with a new section. It might work!
Jeff
There is a type of solder rod that can be used on aluminum (only aluminum) and it works pretty well, though behaves a bit differently in the molten stage than regular solder - but it does a good job of joining low stress joints on aluminum parts.
Interested in hearing how your epoxy fix works out - may have to run a drill bit internally once it sets to clear out the build-up inside. I see now how you want to use the sleeve to just seal up the pinhole, not actually extend the tube with a new section. It might work!
Jeff
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
OK, I must have missed a few posts again...
Um....
Those insulation cutting quick splices are a bad idea even used individually as an emergency power tap for a radio or such... you have a whole herd. In series. They are a Very Bad Idea, particularly as what appears to be primary power distribution. A good fuse box is your friend, and serves as proper power distribution.
Good crimps with a properly adjusted ratcheting crimper are needed in an automotive environment, ideally the crimps with integrated heat shrink lined with hot melt glue (water/vibration proof+ stress relief)
The aluminum bar is good. A copper busbar is ideal. Use those for power distribution and grounds when possible.
The EFI power and grounds should all begin/end at a common point, sensor grounds too, but can be a different common point.
Grounds ideally are short and fat.
Try to keep the run to the battery as short as possible, it is your noise filter.
...And now that I'm all caught up again, it would probably be worth it to rip out and redo the fuel lines, or run nylon or another run of nicop.
Will also allow correcting the location so the lines and steering don't interfere.
Um....
Those insulation cutting quick splices are a bad idea even used individually as an emergency power tap for a radio or such... you have a whole herd. In series. They are a Very Bad Idea, particularly as what appears to be primary power distribution. A good fuse box is your friend, and serves as proper power distribution.
Good crimps with a properly adjusted ratcheting crimper are needed in an automotive environment, ideally the crimps with integrated heat shrink lined with hot melt glue (water/vibration proof+ stress relief)
The aluminum bar is good. A copper busbar is ideal. Use those for power distribution and grounds when possible.
The EFI power and grounds should all begin/end at a common point, sensor grounds too, but can be a different common point.
Grounds ideally are short and fat.
Try to keep the run to the battery as short as possible, it is your noise filter.
...And now that I'm all caught up again, it would probably be worth it to rip out and redo the fuel lines, or run nylon or another run of nicop.
Will also allow correcting the location so the lines and steering don't interfere.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- Max Welton
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
It certainly may come to that, but I'm giving this a try first.Piledriver wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:26 pm ...And now that I'm all caught up again, it would probably be worth it to rip out and redo the fuel lines, or run nylon or another run of nicop.
Will also allow correcting the location so the lines and steering don't interfere.
So the background sound in the last video tripped a check that youtube does for copyright material. Imagine that. I'm always listening to something out in the barn and didn't give it a second thought. So I've taken that version down and replaced it with this edited version that also shows the pressure test at the end.
https://youtu.be/b3f3qop25yE
The sleeved joint holds ~100 psi from my air system which makes me happy. I have the test assembly sitting in some gas to see if it affects the jbweld. I'll check back in a day or so. Tomorrow is turkey-day after all.
PS: I did have to drill out the blockage at the end of the sleeve. If I do this on the car I need to remember that the length of the sleeve should be less that the length of the drill bit. Otherwise I'll have a blockage I can't clear.
Max
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- GS guy
- Posts: 909
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Re: Going under the knife
So far so good Max! You might also want to toss a waste "blob" of excess epoxy in the gas to see how it behaves. A long term test would be better, maybe a month? If the test blob surface is anything other than solid hardened epoxy when removed and dried out, well you might have some issues. If it is unaffected (which I would expect), should be good to go. I've read about fuel tanks made of fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin that worked just fine long term, so I'd expect it to work well in your case. Keep a 2nd sample of cured epoxy (not in gas) as a control to compare with the test piece - scrape tests, etc.
I guess the next hurdle is getting your fuel line tubing thoroughly cleaned internally for the epoxy to adhere perfectly. Scrub scrub scrub!
Jeff
I guess the next hurdle is getting your fuel line tubing thoroughly cleaned internally for the epoxy to adhere perfectly. Scrub scrub scrub!
Jeff
- Max Welton
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
That's a great idea. I just dumped the left over epoxy from this test in the fuel.
Max
Max
- Max Welton
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
Alrighty. I read a comment on TOS about gas eventually attacking JBWeld and recommending this stuff.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SZ5732K/
From the product description
Max
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SZ5732K/
From the product description
I'll give it a look when it arrives.POR-15 Patch is quite literally POR-15 Rust Preventive Coating in a tube. Remains flexible while working and dries rock hard becoming impervious to fuels and solvents.
Max
- Max Welton
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
Still waiting for the seam-sealer. Meanwhile, seats are going in.
When I do the interior, Sewfine will reupholster the seats to go with whatever we do with the back seat, carpet, door cards, etc. Right now they are in as-found condition.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=674190
Max
When I do the interior, Sewfine will reupholster the seats to go with whatever we do with the back seat, carpet, door cards, etc. Right now they are in as-found condition.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=674190
Max
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- Max Welton
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
The seam-sealer finally showed up on Friday so I'll be retesting the fuel system today.
Meanwhile I got a rear axle question.
I'm using the rear subframe/trans from my old 68 which had the stock long axle long spline setup. The axles and end-castings from the 68 were lost. Since I was rebuilding anyways I opted for a short-axle setup to increase my aftermarket wheel options in the rear. Now I'm looking at aftermarket wheels.
As I consider various widths, backspacing and tire sizes I need to know how far inboard the short-axle conversion has moved the rear hubs vs the long axles. I don't have the long axle setup to reference.
Max
Meanwhile I got a rear axle question.
I'm using the rear subframe/trans from my old 68 which had the stock long axle long spline setup. The axles and end-castings from the 68 were lost. Since I was rebuilding anyways I opted for a short-axle setup to increase my aftermarket wheel options in the rear. Now I'm looking at aftermarket wheels.
As I consider various widths, backspacing and tire sizes I need to know how far inboard the short-axle conversion has moved the rear hubs vs the long axles. I don't have the long axle setup to reference.
Max
- Chip Birks
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Re: Going under the knife
I think it's about 1.25" per side
- GS guy
- Posts: 909
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 12:01 am
- Max Welton
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
Thanks guys.
On my 68 squareback (long axles) I ran 205x65s on 4.5 inch KG wheels and it all worked. Drove nice. But those are pretty narrow wheels for those tires.
This time I should be able to put wider wheels in those 205s but I want to keep the tires right where they were in the squareback. So it's a matter of picking 5.5 or 6" wheels with the same offset as the Ghia wheels.
Right now I'm looking at some 914 wheels. Anybody know what the offset would be on these? I've asked the seller but he hasn't got back to me yet.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds ... id=2509049
Max
On my 68 squareback (long axles) I ran 205x65s on 4.5 inch KG wheels and it all worked. Drove nice. But those are pretty narrow wheels for those tires.
This time I should be able to put wider wheels in those 205s but I want to keep the tires right where they were in the squareback. So it's a matter of picking 5.5 or 6" wheels with the same offset as the Ghia wheels.
Right now I'm looking at some 914 wheels. Anybody know what the offset would be on these? I've asked the seller but he hasn't got back to me yet.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds ... id=2509049
Max
- GS guy
- Posts: 909
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Going under the knife
Those vintage Lemans wheels would look killer on your car Max! I think you really have to pay attention to the backspacing of your original wheels vs the replacements, especially with your shorter axles. It's a balance between what's behind the wheel/tire (suspension, inner fender) and what's outboard (bodywork). Those older wheels probably require "mag" wheel lug nuts - the type with a smooth outer shank that positions the wheel and no taper at the lug surface on the wheel. Be sure you can find those in 14mm before committing!
An option might be to get the newer (near identical) version from VTO wheels:
https://www.vtowheels.com/Classic-Wheels_c_1885.html
Unfortunately, not sure if they'd make them with the 130mm lug pattern? If you were willing to change the lug pattern and stud diameter.....
Jeff
An option might be to get the newer (near identical) version from VTO wheels:
https://www.vtowheels.com/Classic-Wheels_c_1885.html
Unfortunately, not sure if they'd make them with the 130mm lug pattern? If you were willing to change the lug pattern and stud diameter.....
Jeff