I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

This is the place to discuss, or get help with any of your Type 4 questions.
eskamobob1
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I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by eskamobob1 »

Hey Guys,

Im looking for a dead honest answer to this question. Can a TIV (or even T1) do the following, or do I realisticaly need to look into a subbie/electric swap?
  • Cruise at 80mph in socal heat (tranny will be geared as needed to achieve this)
  • Take the extra heat load of an AC compressor when it is about 100F
  • average above 20 mpg with very predominantly highway driving (at 75-80)
  • Real good snappy throttle response (I feel like this one is easy)
Power is honestly not a major concern for me. I have been plenty satisfied by quite a number of 140hp sports cars I have had that have been 500-1000lbs heavier than bugs, so while being able to go higher in power than like 90-100hp would be nice it is not a requirement. My budget for the drive train as a whole is 15-20k USD and while I would like to stay air cooled, that is far less important to me than meeting my reqs above.

This whole post is because I just got an opportunity to purchase a full model 3 drive train and battery pack within my budget and if I cant meet these requirements with an AC motor I need to pull the trigger now

Thanks in advance for the help,
-esk
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sideshow
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by sideshow »

I'm only really critical of the cabin heat and defroster as being inferior with t-4 to upright swap.

I see no obvious issues with making 150 very street-able hp with any mild 2l air-cooled
I do for see an issue of begin "allowed" at genuine charging stations (can wrecked VIN get revoked AND still charge?)

Also as far as economics your budget is hopelessly far too little,with electric the cost should lessen over time to be slightly less over time but as you notice it takes some of the soul out of the project
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.
eskamobob1
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by eskamobob1 »

sideshow wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:47 pm I'm only really critical of the cabin heat and defroster as being inferior with t-4 to upright swap.

I see no obvious issues with making 150 very street-able hp with any mild 2l air-cooled
IDC about power and plan to run a gas heater anyways. You are saying an upright converted T4 will be able to do what i want here?
sideshow wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:47 pmI do for see an issue of begin "allowed" at genuine charging stations (can wrecked VIN get revoked AND still charge?)
Im not even sure what this means. Why would the vin of the doner parts matter at all? To do the swap you need an aftermarket BMS anyways and typicaly a stand alone to match up all the can bus so the inverter actualy knows whats happening. As for charging, I would just plug in at home and it wouldnt be an issue to use any of the electrify america chargers if needed either.
sideshow wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:47 pmAlso as far as economics your budget is hopelessly far too little,with electric the cost should lessen over time to be slightly less over time but as you notice it takes some of the soul out of the project
I'm not sure what you mean by this either. I know the electric conversion will be within the range of my budget with the deal on the batteries and drive train I would be getting. Are you saying that a T4 cant be built for 15K?
wreck
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by wreck »

Yes it can be done , the Ghia is a 2.6 , best highway fuel consumption is 8.4liters/100km . both have Mocal oil thermostats and enough coolers to regulate the oil between 70c-90c no matter what the ambient temp.CHT's are also in the very safe margin . Climate varies from 20C to 35C from winter to summer .

Pushing a bus at those speeds can be done but fuel consumption will be high ,plus extra cooling of the heads would be needed . water/meth injection works well on NA air-cooled engines for controlling CHT's under constant high load .
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eskamobob1
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by eskamobob1 »

wreck wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:42 pm Yes it can be done , the Ghia is a 2.6 , best highway fuel consumption is 8.4liters/100km . both have Mocal oil thermostats and enough coolers to regulate the oil between 70c-90c no matter what the ambient temp.CHT's are also in the very safe margin . Climate varies from 20C to 35C from winter to summer .

Pushing a bus at those speeds can be done but fuel consumption will be high ,plus extra cooling of the heads would be needed . water/meth injection works well on NA air-cooled engines for controlling CHT's under constant high load .
I totaly forgot to say, I have a beetle. Honestly, thats real good to hear as I realy do want to stay AC if it was possible. I also know how much of a massive fucking PITA it is to get a BMS t talk to a system it wasnt designed for so while I was willing to do it I kinda didn want to.

Out of curiosity, what cooling system are you running on you ghia? Its real hard to make out on my phone. Is it a dtm?
wreck
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by wreck »

the shroud is my own centre mount ,centre of the cylinders design . based on an upside down type3 or 4 fan shroud , if that makes any sense . https://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopi ... f9968406d8
No matter where you go , there you are !
eskamobob1
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by eskamobob1 »

That was an awesome read. TYVM for the link
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raygreenwood
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by raygreenwood »

So...its bug. 2200 lbs-ish?
You dont need anything near 140hp to cruise at 80 all day. The type 4 cars...my 412...I cruised at 75 with peaks to 80+....literally all day....back when it was my daily driver. I averaged over 1200 miles per week for about 5 years covering 13 states on business. It had roughly (after tweaks) just about 90hp on stock/modified D-jet injection. It averaged about 9-10 seconds 0-60. 23mpg city....solid....and between 28-31 mpg highway depending on wind, terrain and vehicle loading. The 412 is right at 14 feet long if memory serves and just under 2300 lbs empty. It was a 1.7L. Its best torque range is between 3200 and 4200.

You can build a decent, medium compression type 4 engines (8.5:1...not under 8.2:1....maybe 9.0:1). Good cam set up for your induction, a better than stock exhaust and a much better than stock ignition. You can do this with a 1.8 or 2.0L. Spend some money on the heads...42 x 26 valves, some light unshrouding. Domed or flat top pistons with a tight deck....0.040" to 0.045" max.

The real key will be the gears. The 412 manual 004 transmission had a 3.73:1 or 3.91:1 final drive with a 1:1 4th. When you do the math on a bug trans with .89 4th and 4.12 final...it does not seem much different. In 4th gear on the highway...its not....but moving up through 1, 2 and 3....its a big difference having higher final drive. Ray
twodollardoug
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by twodollardoug »

I can't figure out how to post a picture, but my gutted 914 weighs in at 1800 lbs. I have a 2 liter type 4 with dual webers. It is my daily driver. I average 26 mpg and I cruise 85 mph. And I live in the blistering desert of southern California.
20200505_132337.jpg
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

20200505_132337[1] copy.jpg
Played with the pix a bit to see more.

Lee
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twodollardoug
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by twodollardoug »

Thanks Lee. I was gonna clean it up and take another picture.
eskamobob1
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by eskamobob1 »

raygreenwood wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 12:27 pm So...its bug. 2200 lbs-ish?
You dont need anything near 140hp to cruise at 80 all day. The type 4 cars...my 412...I cruised at 75 with peaks to 80+....literally all day....back when it was my daily driver. I averaged over 1200 miles per week for about 5 years covering 13 states on business. It had roughly (after tweaks) just about 90hp on stock/modified D-jet injection. It averaged about 9-10 seconds 0-60. 23mpg city....solid....and between 28-31 mpg highway depending on wind, terrain and vehicle loading. The 412 is right at 14 feet long if memory serves and just under 2300 lbs empty. It was a 1.7L. Its best torque range is between 3200 and 4200.
Oh, yah, i was not worried about HP at all. I was predominantly worried about a T4 (even with a DTM) being able to handle the heat load of a bug brick with AC at those temps. Its good to hear no one seems to think it will be an issue.
raygreenwood wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 12:27 pmYou can build a decent, medium compression type 4 engines (8.5:1...not under 8.2:1....maybe 9.0:1). Good cam set up for your induction, a better than stock exhaust and a much better than stock ignition. You can do this with a 1.8 or 2.0L. Spend some money on the heads...42 x 26 valves, some light unshrouding. Domed or flat top pistons with a tight deck....0.040" to 0.045" max.
Ill bookmark this advise. I have to actualy find a good core before I go much of anywhere on engine unfortunately.
raygreenwood wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 12:27 pmThe real key will be the gears. The 412 manual 004 transmission had a 3.73:1 or 3.91:1 final drive with a 1:1 4th. When you do the math on a bug trans with .89 4th and 4.12 final...it does not seem much different. In 4th gear on the highway...its not....but moving up through 1, 2 and 3....its a big difference having higher final drive. Ray
Yah. I am well aware the gearing will need to be changed. The good news is that a 3.44 R&P gives me basicaly idential 1st and top gear to a 914, so I can do that at the cheapest, but honestly, I have rely been playing with the idea of going with a subbie gear box and an AC motor. Just seems like there is so much more support out there for subbie boxes and they are basicaly the same price with an LSD as a berg5 or a 901 swap and seem to be similar levels of modification required as well.
twodollardoug wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 1:30 pm I can't figure out how to post a picture, but my gutted 914 weighs in at 1800 lbs. I have a 2 liter type 4 with dual webers. It is my daily driver. I average 26 mpg and I cruise 85 mph. And I live in the blistering desert of southern California. 20200505_132337.jpg
Thats real good to hear as that would mean I am just fine if i go to a 3.44 R&P. Is your 2.0 basically stock aside from the carb conversion and cooling?
twodollardoug
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by twodollardoug »

Kind of yes. I do have birals and 914 heads. And dry sump, with my own oiling system.
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sideshow
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by sideshow »

So you have a reasonable goal, your number can be meet with a t-1 and the parasitic loss of AC.

To address the t-4 conversion it is true that it is roughly four times the initial cost of like t-1. This is largely core dependent and I refuse to guess at what you have. Are you buying everything out right or do you posses a turn key known pancake cooled one all ready? The used parts market is really random on quality so its not quite just buy a shroud and install.

That being said the fastest kit would be a DTM stage (what ever includes beetle tin), plus fuel supply and header/muffler bits would be loads easier than any BMS/throttle/road speed/brake sensor wiring.

But again maybe not that bad considering much of the same money is very similar. There is more crap in the t-1 aftermarket so some cost is justified by t-4.

What can you do?
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.
eskamobob1
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Re: I need an honest answer: Can a TIV (or T1) do what I want it to?

Post by eskamobob1 »

twodollardoug wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 5:30 pm Kind of yes. I do have birals and 914 heads. And dry sump, with my own oiling system.
Are drysumps more readily avilible/better than what are availible for T1s? Honestly I doubt im going something that extreme for a long while, but just kinda currious
sideshow wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 10:22 pm So you have a reasonable goal, your number can be meet with a t-1 and the parasitic loss of AC.
can they really? I honestly have been getting massive amounts of mixed info over on the samba about the cooling capabilities of a T1 over on thesamba. You try and ask this question there and 30% of the the comments are just "why do you need to go fast, just drive 60 and dont worry about it. Epecialy dont do AC since that isnt stock on your year" and the other 2/3 disagree on if a T1 can cool enough to use AC in those kinds of heats, much the less if it can cool its self if geared down a bit to 80mph isnt 4100 RPM (since everyone seems to agree that cruising day in day out at 4k+ isnt great for engine life). Reason I came here is because I 2 (maybe 3) people brought up I could do it with a T4 but no one else realy responded to the idea over there.
sideshow wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 10:22 pmTo address the t-4 conversion it is true that it is roughly four times the initial cost of like t-1. This is largely core dependent and I refuse to guess at what you have. Are you buying everything out right or do you posses a turn key known pancake cooled one all ready? The used parts market is really random on quality so its not quite just buy a shroud and install.
There is a guy in my area selling a 914 1.8 with no intakes (but everything else) that he says was running and just pulled for a 2.0 conversion. Unfortunately he isnt getting back to me, but im not in a rush on this one in general now that I have a game plan. My thought has kind of been to get a running T4 a DTM conversion kit, and probably a vintage speed exhaust to start. and hold off on the rebuild for a bit to see just how much more power I want over that level. From what I have seen, you need to wait for one to come on the market, but that should be around 5-6k USD, with 6-10k for the rebuild when I decide to do it (and another 5k for the trans at the same time). Good news is I have dual 40 IDFs already so i should just need a linkage and some new risers when i do get the pancake on that side.
That being said the fastest kit would be a DTM stage (what ever includes beetle tin), plus fuel supply and header/muffler bits would be loads easier than any BMS/throttle/road speed/brake sensor wiring.
Actually, something real nice about the tesla setup is that the normal input sensors all use a very standardized CAN interface. The pedals, speed sensor, shifter, etc all are basically just "plug it in and calibrate limits". Its realy just the BMS that is the issue since the stock BMS wants a much of connectivity that just isnt realistic to put into a classic car so you need a new one that is essentially a stand alone ECU you now have to make work. Good news is, I have had to do exactly that for work a few times now, but it is a massive bitch every single time.
sideshow wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 10:22 pmBut again maybe not that bad considering much of the same money is very similar. There is more crap in the t-1 aftermarket so some cost is justified by t-4.

What can you do?
Yah. Electric swaps are quite expensive in general. Even with the probably 70% off I could have gotten on teh drive train and batteries I still would have been easily north of 15k just for parts and probably 18-19k all said and done including all the fabrication materials I would have needed.

As for parts availability, that is realy my main concern with a T-4. There are no reman blocks, and all the nice parts seem to be from Germany with much higher costs compared to similar T1 items since they just dont expect to sell as many. Seems to me like a T4s basically are a 5-6k long block or a 15k+ one where as with T1s you get everything in between as well.

If I am being completely honest, I would love it if I could just use a CB kit and not have to worry about matching parts myself (this build is the first time I will be inside an engine at all), but im not confidant any of their kits will really do what I want and I never really trust salesmen to be truthful about what their poop is capable of, so custom build is kinda what I have to do (and if im going custom anyways, may as well go T4)
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