Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
- theKbStockpiler
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Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
I was reading a webpage on Aircooled.com that "many" beetle owners go with a staggered tire set up. From a rotations stand point I would rather have a square configuration but some cars wear the fronts and rears pretty closely so they don't need to be rotated as with other cars. I did not have my only bug driver for that long so I have no personal experience with that. Also if wider tires in the front are not a benefit ,it would make steering more of a effort for no reason. Then there is tire scrub and the super beetle shimmy. i have a 1302 btw and only want to go as wide as a 195 65 15.
Super beetle with attitude
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
Ah, the never ending battle on tires. Am I practical or am I going for looks. Am I stock or performance oriented. Some people have two or more sets of tires for either their daily needs or when in the mood for.... 'S been going on as long as I have been around and I doubt it will stop in the near future.
Lee
Lee
- FJCamper
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
We were exposed to different tires sizes front and rear from the hotrodders and drag guys, the object of the big racing slicks in the rear to improve tracton. And of course in the 1930's the Auto Union P-Wagens sometimes used dual tires on each side on the rear axles.
Porsche introduced us to larger rear tires than front as a matter of tuning the handling. We rear engine guys used to just pump up the rear tires harder, then the factory made it official . Just use wider tires. The advantage was much more effective suspension tuning.
Of course the "racing" association of the appearance of larger rear tires inspired the cosmetics, and most of the people going for larger rear rubber made their handling tricky by mismatching tire types and brands. You need to use exactly the same brands and tire types to start with. Actually, tuning with larger rear tires is a joy, because when done right the effects are so positive and dramatic.
Porsche introduced us to larger rear tires than front as a matter of tuning the handling. We rear engine guys used to just pump up the rear tires harder, then the factory made it official . Just use wider tires. The advantage was much more effective suspension tuning.
Of course the "racing" association of the appearance of larger rear tires inspired the cosmetics, and most of the people going for larger rear rubber made their handling tricky by mismatching tire types and brands. You need to use exactly the same brands and tire types to start with. Actually, tuning with larger rear tires is a joy, because when done right the effects are so positive and dramatic.
- theKbStockpiler
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
Thanks for the replyFJ. While I have your attention, I'm interested in specifically the front of a rear engine car. Is a larger tire in the front just a burden and otherwise a waste?
Super beetle with attitude
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
My experience is any thing wider than 195 on the front is a waste unless you have an all out race car. If they are wider often you need to run them with quite low pressure to work and they also don't get enough heat in them to stick. My best set up is 195/55/15 front on 6" rim and 205/60/15 on a 7" rim. these sizes aren't as common any more so I have been looking at Lotus Elise sizes (195/50/16 on a 6" rim and 225/45/17 on a 7.5 or 8"rim) as possible replacements.
this is an overview of the Lotus sizes and brands: https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Tyres
On my old street beetle I ran 195/70/15 on 6" rims all around which worked quite well.
this is an overview of the Lotus sizes and brands: https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Tyres
On my old street beetle I ran 195/70/15 on 6" rims all around which worked quite well.
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
Besides "big and littles" here is also the construction of the tire (e.g., wall construction), the tires material itself, the tread pattern and the intended use to consider. Then there is the suspension and what is/has been done to it. Nothing in life is really easy is there.
Lee
Lee
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
I'd agree that 195 width is a max for a street car. By coindence, we've just fixed some heavy steering problems on our HSR Ghia and spent the past couple of weeks fine-tuning steering effort by systematic ball joint and tie rod end replacements.
We do use 185x15 Hoosier Speedster racing tires (bias ply) all the way around on the Ghia.
We have experiemented with different width tires front and rear on our LeMons Super Beetle, so our efforts with tire tuning is legitimate. But here's a bit of hard-won experienece. We run 4-piston Wilwood front brake calipers made to stop circle track Camaros, and stock dual 40mm piston ATE calipers in the rear, same as came on 1972 Ghia fronts. Porterfield pads in the rear.
We bolted up some wider, larger diameter wheels in the rear one race, and in the midst of this 12-hour race our driver had to pit with failing brakes. I broke the bleeder valve open on one rear brake caliper and got steam (Wilwood 540 degree racing fluid). This had never happened to us with the 15" diameter Porsche 944 wheels we normally use.
The solution was apparent. the 17" wheel increased the leverage from the caliper to the tire tread contact itself, and we were overworking the rear brakes. A quick change back to 15" daimeter wheels fixed it.
FJC
We do use 185x15 Hoosier Speedster racing tires (bias ply) all the way around on the Ghia.
We have experiemented with different width tires front and rear on our LeMons Super Beetle, so our efforts with tire tuning is legitimate. But here's a bit of hard-won experienece. We run 4-piston Wilwood front brake calipers made to stop circle track Camaros, and stock dual 40mm piston ATE calipers in the rear, same as came on 1972 Ghia fronts. Porterfield pads in the rear.
We bolted up some wider, larger diameter wheels in the rear one race, and in the midst of this 12-hour race our driver had to pit with failing brakes. I broke the bleeder valve open on one rear brake caliper and got steam (Wilwood 540 degree racing fluid). This had never happened to us with the 15" diameter Porsche 944 wheels we normally use.
The solution was apparent. the 17" wheel increased the leverage from the caliper to the tire tread contact itself, and we were overworking the rear brakes. A quick change back to 15" daimeter wheels fixed it.
FJC
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
Interesting!
Were the braking systems balanced to the balance of the vehicle: Camaro brakes would normally be bigger in front as usual thing but with the engine and running gear in the rear were the Camaro style brake systems adjusted to this loading? I had to do some brake bias changing in my V8 Pinto Cruising Wagon.
Just curious as I don't run front brakes off-road in the sand .
Lee
Were the braking systems balanced to the balance of the vehicle: Camaro brakes would normally be bigger in front as usual thing but with the engine and running gear in the rear were the Camaro style brake systems adjusted to this loading? I had to do some brake bias changing in my V8 Pinto Cruising Wagon.
Just curious as I don't run front brakes off-road in the sand .
Lee
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
Out of curiosity, why do yall say 195 max? Is the step up to 205 (so you can do 964 fitment with a 205/55R16 and 225/50R16) really that big of a change?
Also, FJ, you say that wider rear tires allows you to fine tune suspension a bit more. Mind explaining that? I know our cars are a bit rear heavy, but I had assumed you could tire up plenty high for that to just not matter at the power levels we typiacly run with propper sway bar sizing
Also, FJ, you say that wider rear tires allows you to fine tune suspension a bit more. Mind explaining that? I know our cars are a bit rear heavy, but I had assumed you could tire up plenty high for that to just not matter at the power levels we typiacly run with propper sway bar sizing
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
VW's and 356/911 Porsches were known for their light steering. That was because of large diameter steering wheels, narrow tires and light front ends. No power steering was considered necessary, until 1989 in the 964 which introduced 205 width tires.
When we began using sofy bias-ply Hoosier Speedster racing tires (185-65x15) the steering noticibly stiffened if you tried to steer lock to lock sitting still.
At one time, a quick steering adaptor was sold for Type 1 VW's that took a complete turn out of lock-to-lock steering. We had one back in our autocross days. It increased steering effort enough that small diameter aftermarket steering wheels were no fun on our Ghia. But how light is light and how heavy is heavy is subjective. Different drivers have different tolerances.
Recently, probably because of years bouncing off too many rumblestrips at the big tracks (Road Atlanta, Sebring, etc), we had beaten our front suspension to the point our driver was getting blisters on his hands trying to steer. We installed a new steering box. That helped. We removed the quick steer, and that helped. Actually you don't want quick steer in 100+ mph sweepers. If you sneeze, you might lose it. Then we changed out both ball joints on the passenger side (most rumble strip impacts being made there) and that helped. We disconnected the old steering damper. That helped. then we discovered the short (driver's side) tie rod was slightly bent. New tie rod and ends helped again, but didn't fix the steering effort to our satisfaction. The driver's side ball joints were just fine. All that left was the passenger side tie rod.
We removed it and low and behold the inner tie rod end, the one to which the steering damper bolts, was slightly bent. We replaced both inner and outer tie rod ends and that fixed it. Light, direct steering returned.
Now, having written all this, we do run 205/50R15's on our LeMons Super Beetle, the Blitzwagen. Stock steering, 15" steering wheel. Excellent steering. We have four drivers and not a one even comments on steering resistance.
Finally, under racing conditions, if you get the wider rear tire adhesion in proportion to the front tire adhesion, you can power through a fast corner without first going into over or understeer and correcting. On the street it will not matter, but racing it does. Check out this video from inside the Blitzwagen and notice the smoothness on the very twisty Barber Motorsports track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yswUBOqW3Ls&t=310s
FJC
When we began using sofy bias-ply Hoosier Speedster racing tires (185-65x15) the steering noticibly stiffened if you tried to steer lock to lock sitting still.
At one time, a quick steering adaptor was sold for Type 1 VW's that took a complete turn out of lock-to-lock steering. We had one back in our autocross days. It increased steering effort enough that small diameter aftermarket steering wheels were no fun on our Ghia. But how light is light and how heavy is heavy is subjective. Different drivers have different tolerances.
Recently, probably because of years bouncing off too many rumblestrips at the big tracks (Road Atlanta, Sebring, etc), we had beaten our front suspension to the point our driver was getting blisters on his hands trying to steer. We installed a new steering box. That helped. We removed the quick steer, and that helped. Actually you don't want quick steer in 100+ mph sweepers. If you sneeze, you might lose it. Then we changed out both ball joints on the passenger side (most rumble strip impacts being made there) and that helped. We disconnected the old steering damper. That helped. then we discovered the short (driver's side) tie rod was slightly bent. New tie rod and ends helped again, but didn't fix the steering effort to our satisfaction. The driver's side ball joints were just fine. All that left was the passenger side tie rod.
We removed it and low and behold the inner tie rod end, the one to which the steering damper bolts, was slightly bent. We replaced both inner and outer tie rod ends and that fixed it. Light, direct steering returned.
Now, having written all this, we do run 205/50R15's on our LeMons Super Beetle, the Blitzwagen. Stock steering, 15" steering wheel. Excellent steering. We have four drivers and not a one even comments on steering resistance.
Finally, under racing conditions, if you get the wider rear tire adhesion in proportion to the front tire adhesion, you can power through a fast corner without first going into over or understeer and correcting. On the street it will not matter, but racing it does. Check out this video from inside the Blitzwagen and notice the smoothness on the very twisty Barber Motorsports track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yswUBOqW3Ls&t=310s
FJC
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
Whew, that tired me out just reading all of what you did and why... almost like I was on the track myself.
Question: on the brakes, are you running a single chamber master cylinder or dual chamber unit and would it/did it make a difference? Just curious.
Lee
Question: on the brakes, are you running a single chamber master cylinder or dual chamber unit and would it/did it make a difference? Just curious.
Lee
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
I'm running twin single M/cylnders with a bias bar , I've two sets of front tyres , 195/50 r16's Yokohama semi slicks A048 I plan to use for track time , and 195/55r16 Goodyear street tyres for everyday driving . on 16x6 rims . being able to fine tune the brakes to suit the diameter /grip difference is good .
I run 205/50r16's on the rear , semi slick AD08's but plan on fitting just a pair of 205/60r16 street tyres for every day driving . 16x7 rims .
I run 205/50r16's on the rear , semi slick AD08's but plan on fitting just a pair of 205/60r16 street tyres for every day driving . 16x7 rims .
No matter where you go , there you are !
- theKbStockpiler
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
Besides for doing a test and seeing if the (width) of the tire is being overloaded with force, how do you tell if more width would be better or just a wast of rubber as in more friction, unsprung weight, steering resistance, etcetera ? A wider tire is not going to allow weight transfer to the outside of the car in a turn for example.
Super beetle with attitude
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
FJ wrote: I broke the bleeder valve open on one rear brake caliper and got steam (Wilwood 540 degree racing fluid).
By any chance did you replace the soft line on that or both sides? I had something like that happen to me; e.g., out on the dunes the brakes started feeling funny (I was using both turning brake handles to lock the diff) when the driver's side rear brake locked up. Someone in the group was carrying a small adjustable Crescent wrench which allowed me to open the brake cylinder and reduce the pressure. Got back to camp by not using the brakes and going slow; I checked the soft line on that side and it was stiff so I went into town and got a pair of them.
No problems like that since. I don't know what the life expectancy for soft lines is but I suspect that their use (or not being used) could/does affect their life.
Lee
By any chance did you replace the soft line on that or both sides? I had something like that happen to me; e.g., out on the dunes the brakes started feeling funny (I was using both turning brake handles to lock the diff) when the driver's side rear brake locked up. Someone in the group was carrying a small adjustable Crescent wrench which allowed me to open the brake cylinder and reduce the pressure. Got back to camp by not using the brakes and going slow; I checked the soft line on that side and it was stiff so I went into town and got a pair of them.
No problems like that since. I don't know what the life expectancy for soft lines is but I suspect that their use (or not being used) could/does affect their life.
Lee
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Re: Benefits of a Staggered or Square tire set up on a beetle and or super.
We use a single 20.6mm master cylinder on the Ghia, and a single 23.8mm on the Blitzwagen, modified with a front bias only pressure bias adjuster because of the 4-piston Wilwood calipers. For the record, Wreck's dual master cyl and bias-bar setup is the best arrangement there is. We've allowed the Ghia to run the 20.6mm (911 cylinder from 1977-89) because with the ATE/VARGAS dual 40mm piston calipers and the Porterfield AP-30 pads, by pure luck gave us the right front to rear bias.
KBstockpiler note: There are several ways to fix most problems, and your question is a good one. Changing the tire diameter is the last thing we do here if we're trying to sort out the handling. On the Blitzwagen, we have adjustable rear spring plates. If we increase the rear ride height, we tend toward oversteer. Decrease the rear ride height, we tend toward understeer. Very fine tuning. But if we need more rear grip to fight oversteer, then we go for wider tires, and start ride heigth tuning all over again.
And if we change something else, such as add or remove a rear sway bar, it's tire pressures again. We in fact just went through this, and our best hotshoe driver took the Blitzwagen out with the intent of forcing spins. By luck we got the tuning right early in the day and the Blitzwagen would not spin even if provoked.
Race tuning is not just a matter of wider or narrow tires. Don't even get me started on wheel alignments.
PS: We do run braided steel brake flex lines, no soft factory rubber.
KBstockpiler note: There are several ways to fix most problems, and your question is a good one. Changing the tire diameter is the last thing we do here if we're trying to sort out the handling. On the Blitzwagen, we have adjustable rear spring plates. If we increase the rear ride height, we tend toward oversteer. Decrease the rear ride height, we tend toward understeer. Very fine tuning. But if we need more rear grip to fight oversteer, then we go for wider tires, and start ride heigth tuning all over again.
And if we change something else, such as add or remove a rear sway bar, it's tire pressures again. We in fact just went through this, and our best hotshoe driver took the Blitzwagen out with the intent of forcing spins. By luck we got the tuning right early in the day and the Blitzwagen would not spin even if provoked.
Race tuning is not just a matter of wider or narrow tires. Don't even get me started on wheel alignments.
PS: We do run braided steel brake flex lines, no soft factory rubber.