Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
- FJCamper
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Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
EMPI must have sold a million of them. Do they work? I find the evidence is conflicting. I hope we can get somewhere with the experience of the members of this board.
My understanding is the 1500S grooved piston sold with the EMPI kit lowered oil temps in Type 3 engines by allowing some oil to flow to the cooler earlier rather than wait for the piston spring to push the piston higher and only then divert most oil to the cooler and then from cooler to bearings.
I also believe or at least accept that a stronger oil pressure relief valve spring will increase midrange to high rpm oil pressure (not idle pressure) and therefore can aid expanded oil systems with external oil coolers, a big filter, etc.
Opinions?
.
My understanding is the 1500S grooved piston sold with the EMPI kit lowered oil temps in Type 3 engines by allowing some oil to flow to the cooler earlier rather than wait for the piston spring to push the piston higher and only then divert most oil to the cooler and then from cooler to bearings.
I also believe or at least accept that a stronger oil pressure relief valve spring will increase midrange to high rpm oil pressure (not idle pressure) and therefore can aid expanded oil systems with external oil coolers, a big filter, etc.
Opinions?
.
- Piledriver
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Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
The stock, unmodified oil cooler "logic" in ACVWs is pressure based.
It's quite bulletproof with an absolutely stock engine with in-spec clearances.
... but when was the last time you saw a stock oil pump? (or one that fits right?)
Case with perfect machining, and perfect top seat for the oil piston?
But---put in a larger than stock pump (all of them are) your oil pressure just went up, usually significantly.
(except at idle as aftermarket pumps are almost all too loose on case fit and suck air/leak pressure internally)
Feature? No... Explanation follows.
With the factory cooler logic and oversized pump, the higher pressure would probably be a bonus except now your oil cooler stays bypassed longer at cruising speed....esp if you are running 20W50 molasses. Mind, it WILL eventually open when the oil gets thin enough at ~280F.
Run the hd springs and a modern 5W30 or 10W30 synthetic oil, perhaps xW40 if engine is well worn or large clearances.
You are likely to find you have cooler oil and engine and better oil pressure than if running a 20W50 or such. (I get that T1s only hold 2.5 quarts. There are cures for that. There are good dino oils but they cost ~same as decent synthetics, no nothing to gain there)
Ditch the stock cooler logic and run a full flow cooler, filter and an oil thermostat to bypass the cooler on any seriously modified or abused engine.
(I include any engine in a Bus as abused) There also arguments to be made for ONLY using an external oil pressure bypass to case post cooler, but I digress...
Note---The pumps with filters on them are bad ideas BTW due to bad passage routing and the filter getting cooked by the exhaust.
I don't care if VW used them on the later models in Mexico, those were bone stock engines with a 12K warranty. That's when I change my oil...
It's quite bulletproof with an absolutely stock engine with in-spec clearances.
... but when was the last time you saw a stock oil pump? (or one that fits right?)
Case with perfect machining, and perfect top seat for the oil piston?
But---put in a larger than stock pump (all of them are) your oil pressure just went up, usually significantly.
(except at idle as aftermarket pumps are almost all too loose on case fit and suck air/leak pressure internally)
Feature? No... Explanation follows.
With the factory cooler logic and oversized pump, the higher pressure would probably be a bonus except now your oil cooler stays bypassed longer at cruising speed....esp if you are running 20W50 molasses. Mind, it WILL eventually open when the oil gets thin enough at ~280F.
Run the hd springs and a modern 5W30 or 10W30 synthetic oil, perhaps xW40 if engine is well worn or large clearances.
You are likely to find you have cooler oil and engine and better oil pressure than if running a 20W50 or such. (I get that T1s only hold 2.5 quarts. There are cures for that. There are good dino oils but they cost ~same as decent synthetics, no nothing to gain there)
Ditch the stock cooler logic and run a full flow cooler, filter and an oil thermostat to bypass the cooler on any seriously modified or abused engine.
(I include any engine in a Bus as abused) There also arguments to be made for ONLY using an external oil pressure bypass to case post cooler, but I digress...
Note---The pumps with filters on them are bad ideas BTW due to bad passage routing and the filter getting cooked by the exhaust.
I don't care if VW used them on the later models in Mexico, those were bone stock engines with a 12K warranty. That's when I change my oil...
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
I use a copy of the Mexican pump & filter combo.
You need a certain exhaust to fit so it doesn’t suit all. The original filter is a bit long so I use a later VW filter which is a little shorter.
The filter sits in the airstream coming out the bottom of the engine (full under tray tin in place) so it is hot there & there is no cooling effect (oil temp & air temperature is basically the same in use). It doesn’t get cooked by the exhaust in my combo.
I also “ported” the filter section because the oil passages weren’t the smoothest, particularly near the pump.
The pump uses 30mm gears. I run 5w30 oil. Pressure is good although I don’t have exact figures (tested during break in only). No oil leaks and the engine runs nice temps (full thermostat set up & mapped EFI so proper control on fuel & timing)
You need a certain exhaust to fit so it doesn’t suit all. The original filter is a bit long so I use a later VW filter which is a little shorter.
The filter sits in the airstream coming out the bottom of the engine (full under tray tin in place) so it is hot there & there is no cooling effect (oil temp & air temperature is basically the same in use). It doesn’t get cooked by the exhaust in my combo.
I also “ported” the filter section because the oil passages weren’t the smoothest, particularly near the pump.
The pump uses 30mm gears. I run 5w30 oil. Pressure is good although I don’t have exact figures (tested during break in only). No oil leaks and the engine runs nice temps (full thermostat set up & mapped EFI so proper control on fuel & timing)
- Piledriver
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Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
How is the fit to the case?
On some Schadek pumps they seem to fake a tight fit by having one of the stud holes with a flat spot or offset slightly... if drilled out the pump almost falls into the case under gravity once lined up.
Its supposed to be an interference fit. Thats why they make pump puller tools...
On some Schadek pumps they seem to fake a tight fit by having one of the stud holes with a flat spot or offset slightly... if drilled out the pump almost falls into the case under gravity once lined up.
Its supposed to be an interference fit. Thats why they make pump puller tools...
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:44 pm
Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
Good question
It’s not interference fit but not the worst.
I can’t remember exactly, probably 0.01mm under.
I seal the pump around the two ports using anaerobic Loctite gasket sealer. Any spare gets dissolved in the oil.
Although we’ve drifted off topic
I run the stock springs. If I could fit a proper thermostat internally (with a fail safe design) I perhaps would consider it but I’d rather avoid external oil hoses if possible.
It’s not interference fit but not the worst.
I can’t remember exactly, probably 0.01mm under.
I seal the pump around the two ports using anaerobic Loctite gasket sealer. Any spare gets dissolved in the oil.
Although we’ve drifted off topic
I run the stock springs. If I could fit a proper thermostat internally (with a fail safe design) I perhaps would consider it but I’d rather avoid external oil hoses if possible.
- Piledriver
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Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
Simple is preferred in most use cases.
You are running a reasonably thin oil, so it's likely no issue, esp with an oil filter.
The 30mm pump might still jack your pressure a bit, vw shipped 21mm through the single relief cases, then 26mm for the dual relief cases and T4s at around the same time.(pretty sure that correlates to doghouse oil cooler)
I'm made up a jig and oringed a pile of pumps awhile back I still haven't gone through, the one in the square is a 28mm Melling, did a bit of the anticavitation grooves on pump body and cover to create a bit of an internal leak and hopefully reduce the idle pressure...running 5w40 so not terribly worried about blowing the filter off. (Melling pumps make almost too good oil pressure when they don't suck air)
You are running a reasonably thin oil, so it's likely no issue, esp with an oil filter.
The 30mm pump might still jack your pressure a bit, vw shipped 21mm through the single relief cases, then 26mm for the dual relief cases and T4s at around the same time.(pretty sure that correlates to doghouse oil cooler)
I'm made up a jig and oringed a pile of pumps awhile back I still haven't gone through, the one in the square is a 28mm Melling, did a bit of the anticavitation grooves on pump body and cover to create a bit of an internal leak and hopefully reduce the idle pressure...running 5w40 so not terribly worried about blowing the filter off. (Melling pumps make almost too good oil pressure when they don't suck air)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:44 pm
Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
The thin oil was a choice to match the pump (plus its mobile1). The Mex bug has hydraulic lifters I think & I believe that is why they went with the 30mm gears (although they managed with less in the T4 etc)
Also, in case anyone reads this & buys the Mex pump… it’s sized for a 4 rivet camshaft so needs modified to run with a 3 rivet or 3 bolt camshaft. Not difficult but it helps if you know all the correct measurements.
Also, in case anyone reads this & buys the Mex pump… it’s sized for a 4 rivet camshaft so needs modified to run with a 3 rivet or 3 bolt camshaft. Not difficult but it helps if you know all the correct measurements.
- FJCamper
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Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
Some good info here, but what I'm specifically looking for is personal experiences, good or bad, with the oil pressure spring kits.
FJC
FJC
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Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
Personal experience fron fixing overheating t1s in Houson and Dallas. They help, and are required if the owner drank the Castrol 20w50 and big oil pump koolaid.
Downsides are minimal to zero, but they will not really help a good stock engine.
Oil tech has come a long way since the 70s which helps.
Downsides are minimal to zero, but they will not really help a good stock engine.
Oil tech has come a long way since the 70s which helps.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:44 pm
Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
No experience, so perhaps not helpful.
I thought the purpose of the bypass was to protect the oil cooler from going pop due to thick cold (mono grade) oil. As a side effect, thick oil & a big pump will bypass the cooler. So I’m not seeing a situation where a higher bypass pressure spring is giving me value. I’ll use a pump & oil grade combo that can flow through the cooler when warm->hot.
The relief valve I can see some cases where you want to run higher pressure for a high rpm or load engine to boost the film strength (if that actually works). However if the pressure suffers due to a “small” pump & lots of extra external oil pipes / coolers / etc which rob some of the flow (due to resistance) then a higher relief valve spring won’t get that back.
Again, no experience & probably not helpful
I thought the purpose of the bypass was to protect the oil cooler from going pop due to thick cold (mono grade) oil. As a side effect, thick oil & a big pump will bypass the cooler. So I’m not seeing a situation where a higher bypass pressure spring is giving me value. I’ll use a pump & oil grade combo that can flow through the cooler when warm->hot.
The relief valve I can see some cases where you want to run higher pressure for a high rpm or load engine to boost the film strength (if that actually works). However if the pressure suffers due to a “small” pump & lots of extra external oil pipes / coolers / etc which rob some of the flow (due to resistance) then a higher relief valve spring won’t get that back.
Again, no experience & probably not helpful
- FJCamper
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Re: Oil Pressure Booster Spring Kits. Threat or Menace?
Executive decision.
Adjustable EMPI oil pressure relief valve spring gadget, stock spring, with grooved piston.
This street and track day setup is for deep sump, 26mm pump, HP-1 filter, and front (under bumper) steel oil cooler. Our standard RetroRacing practice is oil exit to return to top case mounted in/out adapter. We've had no problems with this oil cooler adapter plumbing from the Carrera Pan Americana to LeMons enduros, to historic sports car racing.
The reasoning in this configuration is we need the 26mm pump to maintain pressure throughout this expanded system, an adjustable oil pressure gadget to test results in pressure, and the slotted piston to bleed off oil into the cooler line so as to fill that part of the circuit faster. No air pockets.
By changing oil viscosity (10w30 to 20w40) and having the adjustable oil spring gadget, we can test different pressures and temps.
FJC
Adjustable EMPI oil pressure relief valve spring gadget, stock spring, with grooved piston.
This street and track day setup is for deep sump, 26mm pump, HP-1 filter, and front (under bumper) steel oil cooler. Our standard RetroRacing practice is oil exit to return to top case mounted in/out adapter. We've had no problems with this oil cooler adapter plumbing from the Carrera Pan Americana to LeMons enduros, to historic sports car racing.
The reasoning in this configuration is we need the 26mm pump to maintain pressure throughout this expanded system, an adjustable oil pressure gadget to test results in pressure, and the slotted piston to bleed off oil into the cooler line so as to fill that part of the circuit faster. No air pockets.
By changing oil viscosity (10w30 to 20w40) and having the adjustable oil spring gadget, we can test different pressures and temps.
FJC