Anyone actually Use 87mm slip ins? are they REALLY that bad?

69bajakid · Post by **69bajakid** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:52 pm

Hey everyone..i had my fresh 1641cc motor built and just broken in and then it seized on me...well its out of the bug now..and im almost thinking the end play was to tight..so im gonna blast off the fly wheel and see..but if its a main bearing the block is getting torn down..this motor seized in my street bug..after about an hour of run time..it was intended for my baja bug, and i think thats what it is going back into once im done the re-rebuild

question is, it has Forged 87mm slip in kit..
if i have to tear this thing down. i want to put in a mild stroker crank 74-76-78 what ever..and was thinking about going 87x74 with stock rods,.. or 87x76 with short rods..

but if these cyls are going to let me down i want to swap them out now..and if i do i want to run machine in 88mms thick wall..only problem with that is they dont come in stroker set ups so i will be limited to 74/76mm crank shaft...

basicly look at it like the motor is coming right apart..i NEED a new crank..i have Fresh broken in 87mms and the rods are just stock rebuilds so i dont mind buying new rods.

any combos out there that will give me good bottom end grunt? i have 504 lift 270 duration 11:1 compression (limited use motor)
dual zenith 32ndix carbs 1 1/2" tri mill stinger 39x32mm heads..i like the idea of small motors that roar..thats why the 88x76 intrests me..but if you all think its a stupid idea please feel free to fill me in!

thanx
Cale

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"Its not how big you build it, Its how you build it big"

farmer · Post by **farmer** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 4:07 pm

First, 88mm. thick wall do come w. B pistons.
Second. I am 99% positive that it is not the pistons that have seized on you. That cam and that C/R requires about 104 octane! Are you using that?
I think there is a bigger chance that you fried a rod bearing or that your oilpump shaft either fell out of grip or broke.
If your tolerances was/is right. and you pistons did seize, it must have been HOT!!!
In my almost 20 years with VW engines I have never tried that, not even in a race engine.
Let us hear what you find out.

[This message has been edited by farmer (edited 01-22-2002).]

69bajakid · Post by **69bajakid** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 4:21 pm

I dont think the pistion seized..
and as the motor was running it was only 9:1 compression on 94 octane gas...i now have a set of fly cut heads (same as whats on the motor now 39x32mm) that are set up for 11:1 compression with my current deck hight.
the pistions are fine..i just want to know if its a better idea to toss the slip in style pistions now if i have to tear the motor down..then build up a nice motor and have blow by..they have cro mo top ring..and if i keep them im going to install total seal second rings for the rebuild

the oil pump is ok i assume..i will check but the motor had oil preasure when it seized. its a GBE blue printed stock 30mm pump.i cant remeber the brand name of the actuall pump maker..but it has had the GBE re and re done to it..

i get 94 pump gas and have a card lock for race fuel so compression is not a problem

my air compressor is down so i cant get the fly wheel off but i have a feeling that when i do get it off the motor will turn over.

if not my previous post still stands..tear it down put in a mild stroker crank and possibly new pistions (bigger)

where can you buy machine in 88mm "b" pistions from?

thanx
Cale

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"Its not how big you build it, Its how you build it big"

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 12:01 am

I have built about a dozen 1641s for myself and others. Never ever had a piston sieze! nearly all of them have run like the were bigger than the 1641ccs they really were. Personally if I am going to machine I am going BIG, its 94s or stay home.

69bajakid · Post by **69bajakid** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:02 am

this 1641 sounded insane....im taking the fly wheel off tommrow to see if the tight end play is what seized it...if not..its tear down time..and it looks like i should keep the 87mms....ppl have had good things to say about them along with some bad...i cant decide 74 crank or push the non stroker cyls limits and run a 76mm.. i have also been thinking my baja might be more happy with a 2056 type 4..i have a few 2.0L cores..its just the type 4s dont have the snap the type 1s seem to have...its kinda nice to have the snap in the bush..

anyone out there run a 87x74mm combo before? how about 87x76? my carbs will like the larger displacement i will gain from the crank anyhow..and counterweights..and 8 dowwels..

talk to you later
Cale

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"Its not how big you build it, Its how you build it big"

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 8:41 am

After problems I decided to never use 87s again, that was 8 years ago...They fall into the category with slip in 88s and 92s for me..the cylinder just does not have enough beef in it.. I have made better power with a stock 85.5 at operating temps than an 87 pistoned engine at the same temp due to loss oc compression...

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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:30 am

I will take grunt over snap for offroading every time!

RANDERS · Post by **RANDERS** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:49 am

I like the 87 slip ins... The 88's aren't so high on my list... Get the machine in 88's if you plan on using them. Berg has it all! I am thinking of building a 74 x 87 motor out of spares to run on the road every day. I plan on running 8.5:1 cr with a c-35 cam and k-popas. I figure it wil be a real torquey motor up to about 5000 when the heads stop flowing well. Your seized motor is likely from a main bearing... I have seen motors seize on the #4 bearing instead of the customary #1 rear main. Make sure your dowel pin is still tight in the case when you go back with together. Good luck.

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 8:53 pm

Back in the early 70s I had a 74X87, smoothed and matched dp heads, a Norris 337S cam, and Kadrons. It got 29 MPG, a warning at over 90 MPH and ran low 10s in the 1/8 mile in a baja bug.

69bajakid · Post by **69bajakid** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:15 pm

low 10s in a baja bug is respectable...a stock bug does like a 21sec 1/4?

well if i go 87x74 it will be 11:1 comp
ported and polished 39x32mm heads, dual springs, cro mo push rods..light weight lifters..504 lift 270 duration..straight cuts.stock 8 dowwell flywheel..dual zenith 32ndix..im gonna ditch the 009 for a MSD set up..and i will hook my NOS kit up to the motor now..basicly same engine i have now with some spring work and some toutch ups that i can afford now and not before...if it will get the job done in the baja its what i will do..

thanx
Cale

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"Its not how big you build it, Its how you build it big"

69bajakid · Post by **69bajakid** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:24 pm

well i guess i will run the 87mms for now..they are the better 87mms on the market..i had them checked before i installed them..they were round all the way..i will re check them when i tear the motor down..anyone have a 74m crank for sale?
i will build a type 4 soon..just dont know if its better suited in the daily driver street bug or the baja..i hope it will work ok in the street car...seeing as its only running a stock 1600SP and needs a bigger motor soon..

thanx
Cale

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"Its not how big you build it, Its how you build it big"

farmer · Post by **farmer** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:31 pm

I´m pretty sure John at aircooled net has the machine in 88´s. If not, Berg has them.

69bajakid · Post by **69bajakid** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 5:58 pm

a lot of ppl seem to sell the machine in 88mms, but i have not seen any of the 88mm machine in "B" style pistions and cyl sets for sale..as in 88x82mm set up.. thats more what im looking for..

anyone have a 74mm crank for sale?

thanx
Cale

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"Its not how big you build it, Its how you build it big"

4SPEED · Post by **4SPEED** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:33 pm

I think the major problem with 87's and 88's is blowby. After about 20k miles they start to lose their sealing and oil escapes past the ring. That's when you either tear down, or start buying cases of oil.

Patrick

wallacelee · Post by **wallacelee** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:53 pm

1)My friend (VW mechanic) has been using 87 pistons for quite a number of years...He always uses KS (KOLBENSCHMIT) pistons...not sure if they are cast or FORGED. They seem to perform well enough......uses them on customers' cars
2) he tested CIMA 87s on his dad's car, and those performed quite well as well despite being Brazilian pistons. After 4 years of daily driving, he took it out and check, the pistons were still good.He just replaced the rings and they were put back into service....
3) He did have some problems with slip-in 88s. The pistons were Mahle (Brazilian) and the engine suffered terrible blowby,consumed quite a bit of oil and plugs sometimes covered with oil.... only after about 6000 miles after rebuilt.but he did use Total Seal rings on those pistons.

all the engines mentioned above are stock engines, used daily, his whole family drives VWs...5 Beetles and 2 Type 2s.

He never tried 87s on Type 2s.

just my small bit of experience.

[This message has been edited by wallacelee (edited 01-24-2002).]