Big displacement Type 4 in an actual Type 4 car?

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:05 pm

OK, I'm pretty new to the aircooled VW motors. Mostly what I have read about on the STF is converting the T4 motor for use with an upright cooling setup to stick into Beetles, etc...Obviously, there is concern over whether a big displacement motor can be cooled adequately, so I could see why something like the DTM would be great since the stock pancake cooling setup won't fit in a Beetle (I'm assuming). I guess my question is: How does the DTM compare to the stock Type 4 pancake cooling setup? Could I run a big displacement T4 motor with stock cooling system in my actual Type 4 car (412) and have it run cool enough?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:40 am

I think the DTM actually could fit into a 412 coupe engine compartment. (Not quite sure though) - but there is no need, unless you really wan to turn it inside out. The stock system will, with only minor improovements, handle quite a bit of power/cooling.
In a good combo, 130-140 hp is not a problem.
With all the right, and EXPENSIIIVE parts, - close to 200 hp can be cooled by the stock system.
So, in a T4 car, spend the $$ on better parts. At least that´s MHO.
T.

cnavarro · Post by **cnavarro** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:21 am

With a set of Nickies paired with the factory pancake cooling you'll have no problem. All our original field testing was done on a 2615, with pancake cooling, in a type 3 engine bay.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:05 am

I have combinations for both types of cooling systems. The stock cooling system will run "Cool enough" BUT it does no where near the job of keeping all 4 cylinders in close proximity of each other- like the DTM does. Thats why the DTM was made the way that Joe designed it.

I do big Type IV engines with stock cooling all the time for 914, and we never hear issues about them running hot. n the dyno I plot all the temps and find the settings that provide the coolest running, and best power-Its not all about HP!

The stock system is heavy, bulky and not really cool to look at. I can make it work for over 200HP with Nickies- You don't need a DTM unless you want one.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:46 am

I see, so the aim of the DTM is to keep temperatures more consistent between all four cylinders, gotcha!

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:39 pm

And cooler overall..

Its not just a goal- its been proven over and over again.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:28 pm

Oh yeah, I wasn't doubting. I'm sure its fantastic. If I have the money and it would fit, I'd buy one!

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:11 pm

Hey Jake,

Here's an interesting question: Have you ever built a hi-po Type 4 engine for a Type 4 car (411/412)? It would have different requirements than a Bus, Bug, 914 or Thing. It weighs a more than a 914/Bug, but it would better use higher RPM power than a Bus. It's also more aerodynamic than a Bus. The 411/412s also didn't have an overdrive, just a direct drive 1:1, with an automatic most of time here in the US. Just curious if you had ever done a combo for VW's unloved line....

Tuna

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:40 pm

I have but nothing bigger than a 76x96

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:09 pm

You've built engines for a 411 or a 412? Well that surprises me! It must have been quite a car to drive, a truly GT VW.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:15 pm

I just traded for a 412... Don't know what I'm gonna do with it. Perhaps a 912 front clip and a six cylinder!

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:23 pm

Make it the 412GT.... a nice engine, Porsche 901 trans, and build it German Look. It would be an awesome site on the race track.

Tuna

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:44 pm

Yeah, but that nose- its just hideous!

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:47 pm

In the 411/412 forum, somebody chimed in from Norway I think, stating that there are a couple of radical 412's over there with 6-cyl. Porsche motors, even turbo. I bet that's surprised some people at a stop light!

He was building quite a hot rod also as I remember.
Jake, that's cool, what bodystyle of 412 did you get? Yes, the styling is very avant-garde, which doesn't appeal to everyone. The nose is quite long... Part of the problem is that the car is actually quite large, and the factory 15" wheels look incredibly puny on there in my opinion. If you look at Neal's 412 coupe lowered and with the 17" Porsche cup wheels on tuna's site, the long nose effect is somewhat diminished. Heck, look carefully at a Boxster. The front overhang is enormous on that car too! The other part is the "nose-high" attitude of the Type 4 cars from the factory, which exacerbates the bulging nose effect...

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:33 am

The 15" wheels are actually fine....you just need to put decent tires on it. Use 5.5 x 15's with 205-55-15's or 205-60's. Handles great. When basic suspension techniques are applied,...like lowering in the front to bring it even with the back, correct valving on gas struts, urethane bushings...and stiffer idler bushing....there are no ACVW's that even come close to it in handling...unless they are highly modified. Its a very good handling car when done well.

jake, the styling grows on you. The shape of the 412 handled much better than the 411 as it generated a good deal less lift. Thats why they changed it. The 412 also has 5 degrees more static castor built in.
A 912 front clip sounds nifty, but would doubtless be impossible to install...and maintain structural integrity...and use or align the the front suspension. Also, the weight imbalance from the lighter 912 front end...would be a death trap. The frot end on the 412 is superior to the design of the 912. Its a baseline variant of the 911/912 front end. Just the coil strut units are a departure. Its already light in the front end. These cars have a high degree of "911" style handling...you know what that means.... when driven fast. They also do not have a pan. Its difficult to cut things off. let me know when you start on the suspension. I can help. Ray