The ultimate cam/lifter proving ground!
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
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synthesisdv
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:08 am
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
There it is fellows!
Its sitting outside screaming away right now and all I need for it to be 100% is a few more feet of braided oil hose and hooking up both the Holley filters, and my low oil pressure shutoff system.
Here are the specs:
The drive engine is a DTM equipped 1700 built solely for this purpose. It has 10:1 CR with a little wild Web Cam that we made up just for this and was built from 100% used parts right down to the bearings. The only thing it has in it that is new is a 30mm Schadek pump. I set the CR high to get the most efficiency I could from it and to generate enough heat to really get the oil up to temp even at low RPM.
The drive engine had to get good fuel economy, or I will go broke runnng it all day everyday testing and breaking in cams. The engine is fed with dual Dells, I may switch those to a stock EFI system with a modified plenum and set of runners for more stable running around 3000 RPM. I have set the system up with a DTM and a 356 upper pulley as well as a 20% larger lower pulley to keep the heads at around a 225ish degree temp to also help with fuel economy.
The lower engine is the fixture. We used a Vanagon case for it and it was also outfitted with a 30mm pump.
Crankshaft- good standard original with a stripped down auto tranny flex plate used only for sealing purposes and to keep end play correct. The crank, modified flwx plate and dual drive pulleys were all balanced to keep things running smooth.
Rods-super modified rods in it that basically nothing but a big end, the beam was chopped off and the rod is only used to keep the oil flow from the rods to the camshaft as close to perfect as possible. This was VERY difficult to do, and too over a solid day of grinder time to accomplish. It was a very important piece to the puzzle and something that no other fixture I have seen incorporates.
Pistons- They were flipped around backward in their bores and JB welded into place! We don't need pistons and have no rods to actuate them anyway!
Oil pump- 30mm Schadek, the oil system is absolutely amazing and it amazed me that it works as well as it does, it was a wild try but it works like a charm!
The engine fixture it's self is my old test stand from the days before we had the dyno. I stripped it down and made another fixture underneath to hold the test engine firmly. If you look closely you will see that the lower engine and the entire fixture it is attached to is on a full pivot. This allows for fast removal of the test engine for cam and lifter swaps. It also helps to keep the drive belt adjusted better because belt tension is always the same. The belt tension is adjusted with the large turnbuckle.
The fixture also has a full charging system, its own battery, its own fuel tank, and cyl head temp, oil temp and oil pressure gauges for each engine, it is basically a stationary vehicle/dyno in many ways..
Safety features I have incorporated a magnetic chipe detector in one of the holley filter housings (filter right after the test engine that would nor,mally see chips first) This will pick up magnetic particles and when enough collect on its face it will turn on a 12 volt siren on the fixture. This will alert us when we have a bad set of lifters or a cam failure! The other saftey feature is an oil pressure actuated kill switch. Since the engines share oil pressure and volume if the lower engine loses its drive belt the upper engine loses its oil pressure and dies... So we modified an oil pressure switch to shut the drive engine down at 25 PSI oil pressure to save us alot of work from an oiling failure.
The way it works:
The oil pump in the drive engine actually provides oil pressure for the lower fixture as it is plumbed from the full flow pump through a filter and then into the test engines main oil galley... Then the oil from the test engine is pumped through a filter and then to the main oil galley of the drive engine. Since both engines are running @ 1:1 drive the oil is swapped between them and unbelievably they both keep the same oil pressures and even 4 quarts of oil stays in each sump! It works perfectly!
I have 3 sets of heads with different spring tensions to use for different tests. The heads can be swapped in 5 minutes flat! The cas can also be broken down in 10 minutes and a cam swapped in 15-30 minutes and ready to go again!
I went to the ends of the earth to make this fixture "Spintron" the best I could and the most real world available. A few other individuals and companies have made fixtures similar to this but none were as detailed as this one. The time it took to do this has ben amazing, and now the payoffs are going to be unreal. This fixture is the only way we can actually find out real time compatibilities with cams and lifters.. The other benefit is that I can now run cams and lifters in the break in fixture for a day before we install them into an engine! Thats a HUGE plus!
So many people will ask "Why didn't you make it electric" Well, answer is its all aircooled this way, doesn't jack up a power bill, and it swaps oil between an engine that is actually alive over the top of it.. The oil warms up just like in a car and its as close to the real thing as you can get...
Why do something if it isn't damn near perfect??
Welcom to the proving ground folks, this baby is gonna make some enemies for sure- let the games begin!
Its sitting outside screaming away right now and all I need for it to be 100% is a few more feet of braided oil hose and hooking up both the Holley filters, and my low oil pressure shutoff system.
Here are the specs:
The drive engine is a DTM equipped 1700 built solely for this purpose. It has 10:1 CR with a little wild Web Cam that we made up just for this and was built from 100% used parts right down to the bearings. The only thing it has in it that is new is a 30mm Schadek pump. I set the CR high to get the most efficiency I could from it and to generate enough heat to really get the oil up to temp even at low RPM.
The drive engine had to get good fuel economy, or I will go broke runnng it all day everyday testing and breaking in cams. The engine is fed with dual Dells, I may switch those to a stock EFI system with a modified plenum and set of runners for more stable running around 3000 RPM. I have set the system up with a DTM and a 356 upper pulley as well as a 20% larger lower pulley to keep the heads at around a 225ish degree temp to also help with fuel economy.
The lower engine is the fixture. We used a Vanagon case for it and it was also outfitted with a 30mm pump.
Crankshaft- good standard original with a stripped down auto tranny flex plate used only for sealing purposes and to keep end play correct. The crank, modified flwx plate and dual drive pulleys were all balanced to keep things running smooth.
Rods-super modified rods in it that basically nothing but a big end, the beam was chopped off and the rod is only used to keep the oil flow from the rods to the camshaft as close to perfect as possible. This was VERY difficult to do, and too over a solid day of grinder time to accomplish. It was a very important piece to the puzzle and something that no other fixture I have seen incorporates.
Pistons- They were flipped around backward in their bores and JB welded into place! We don't need pistons and have no rods to actuate them anyway!
Oil pump- 30mm Schadek, the oil system is absolutely amazing and it amazed me that it works as well as it does, it was a wild try but it works like a charm!
The engine fixture it's self is my old test stand from the days before we had the dyno. I stripped it down and made another fixture underneath to hold the test engine firmly. If you look closely you will see that the lower engine and the entire fixture it is attached to is on a full pivot. This allows for fast removal of the test engine for cam and lifter swaps. It also helps to keep the drive belt adjusted better because belt tension is always the same. The belt tension is adjusted with the large turnbuckle.
The fixture also has a full charging system, its own battery, its own fuel tank, and cyl head temp, oil temp and oil pressure gauges for each engine, it is basically a stationary vehicle/dyno in many ways..
Safety features I have incorporated a magnetic chipe detector in one of the holley filter housings (filter right after the test engine that would nor,mally see chips first) This will pick up magnetic particles and when enough collect on its face it will turn on a 12 volt siren on the fixture. This will alert us when we have a bad set of lifters or a cam failure! The other saftey feature is an oil pressure actuated kill switch. Since the engines share oil pressure and volume if the lower engine loses its drive belt the upper engine loses its oil pressure and dies... So we modified an oil pressure switch to shut the drive engine down at 25 PSI oil pressure to save us alot of work from an oiling failure.
The way it works:
The oil pump in the drive engine actually provides oil pressure for the lower fixture as it is plumbed from the full flow pump through a filter and then into the test engines main oil galley... Then the oil from the test engine is pumped through a filter and then to the main oil galley of the drive engine. Since both engines are running @ 1:1 drive the oil is swapped between them and unbelievably they both keep the same oil pressures and even 4 quarts of oil stays in each sump! It works perfectly!
I have 3 sets of heads with different spring tensions to use for different tests. The heads can be swapped in 5 minutes flat! The cas can also be broken down in 10 minutes and a cam swapped in 15-30 minutes and ready to go again!
I went to the ends of the earth to make this fixture "Spintron" the best I could and the most real world available. A few other individuals and companies have made fixtures similar to this but none were as detailed as this one. The time it took to do this has ben amazing, and now the payoffs are going to be unreal. This fixture is the only way we can actually find out real time compatibilities with cams and lifters.. The other benefit is that I can now run cams and lifters in the break in fixture for a day before we install them into an engine! Thats a HUGE plus!
So many people will ask "Why didn't you make it electric" Well, answer is its all aircooled this way, doesn't jack up a power bill, and it swaps oil between an engine that is actually alive over the top of it.. The oil warms up just like in a car and its as close to the real thing as you can get...
Why do something if it isn't damn near perfect??
Welcom to the proving ground folks, this baby is gonna make some enemies for sure- let the games begin!
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sparkmaster1
- Moderator
- Posts: 1978
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:01 am
Damn impressive. You sure you're not working for one of those Tractor pull Monsters that have 4 engines in them? You could even use that exhaust as a hot plate to cook up some lunch and not even stop working!! Looks like it would leave some nice "grill" marks on some fat Brauts. As always nice work. Tim
Owner Tim's ACVW Engine/Trans Service
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
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Wally
- Posts: 4564
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Why am I not surprised to read this...LOL!!MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:... and we already have plans for a stainless box that will fit under the engine to be used to cook with...
Super nice fixture Jake!
As always I love to hear/read you breaking new testing grounds.
Very curieus about the results. I hope we don't have to wait for it to be published in next years Ultra VW or s/th?
Best regards,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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OriginalCustoms
- Posts: 292
- Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 12:01 am
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R2.0
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:18 pm
Some questions and comments... (If any of these border on trade secrets, I'll certainly expect an MYOB)
1. The driver engine is using a generator. I thought the DTM used an alternator? Did you make a custom stand for it, or just shim it?
2. Any tricks to the head and case fastening? Those times sounded awfully quick. Special fasteners, or just a buttload of experience?
3. What do you do about exhaust fumes? If that thing is running all day it must get really stinky.
4. What's in the tranny hooked up to the driver, besides a starter?
5. How mush horsepower does the fixture take to run?
6. Constant speed, or variable?
Comments:
1. consider a Megasquirt setup for the FI.
a. It will allow fine tuning/leaning your A/F ratio to a gnat's ass on the fly, letting you balance operating temps with economy.
b. It will interface with the stock FI setup - a bunch of people have done it.
c. It is DIY, and therefore a project, and therefore probably irresistable to you.
2. Alright, I'll take the plunge. I think you might be wrong about the cost of an electric motor vs. gas powered, especially with gas prices so high. I can see the need for heating the oil - the test jig won't do it - but a sump tank with an electric submersible heater would do it. Variable speeds would be a pain to implement, and yes, you would need to buy stuff instead of using the used stuff you have, but I'd be curious to see the fuel bills for a year of operation.
Hmmm... Won't a generator turn into a motor if external voltage is applied? Mount a generator stand and generator, and then apply voltage. 12V should be good for about 1/2 HP, and so 24V will get 1 HP and speed varies with voltage. An inverter and some pots...Maybe not.
1. The driver engine is using a generator. I thought the DTM used an alternator? Did you make a custom stand for it, or just shim it?
2. Any tricks to the head and case fastening? Those times sounded awfully quick. Special fasteners, or just a buttload of experience?
3. What do you do about exhaust fumes? If that thing is running all day it must get really stinky.
4. What's in the tranny hooked up to the driver, besides a starter?
5. How mush horsepower does the fixture take to run?
6. Constant speed, or variable?
Comments:
1. consider a Megasquirt setup for the FI.
a. It will allow fine tuning/leaning your A/F ratio to a gnat's ass on the fly, letting you balance operating temps with economy.
b. It will interface with the stock FI setup - a bunch of people have done it.
c. It is DIY, and therefore a project, and therefore probably irresistable to you.
2. Alright, I'll take the plunge. I think you might be wrong about the cost of an electric motor vs. gas powered, especially with gas prices so high. I can see the need for heating the oil - the test jig won't do it - but a sump tank with an electric submersible heater would do it. Variable speeds would be a pain to implement, and yes, you would need to buy stuff instead of using the used stuff you have, but I'd be curious to see the fuel bills for a year of operation.
Hmmm... Won't a generator turn into a motor if external voltage is applied? Mount a generator stand and generator, and then apply voltage. 12V should be good for about 1/2 HP, and so 24V will get 1 HP and speed varies with voltage. An inverter and some pots...Maybe not.
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Plastermaster
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:01 am
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
The body of a generator and alternator are the same size. My DTM stand will accept either with no modifications. I used a generator because I had a good one and no other use for it (like most of the parts in this fixture)1. The driver engine is using a generator. I thought the DTM used an alternator? Did you make a custom stand for it, or just shim it?
2. Any tricks to the head and case fastening? Those times sounded awfully quick. Special fasteners, or just a buttload of experience?
Since the fixture has no pistons the case can be split with the heads and pushrod tubes in place, no need to remove them at all. The heads can be R&R'd by pulling 8 nuts and the pushrod tubes and rockers... Its simple as pie.
.3. What do you do about exhaust fumes? If that thing is running all day it must get really stinky
My shop is in the country, just push it out back and let it run... Exhaust smells good to the true hardcore anyway! The fixture can run with no supervision at all for hours.. no need to babysit it.
?4. What's in the tranny hooked up to the driver, besides a starter
Its a full tranny, its even good. In the old days I had a pair of brake rotors hooked to the stand with bearing carriers from a Type I. With an adjustable master cylinder I could apply a load to the test engine on the fixture.. I removed the other items from the fixture for this, but left the full tranny.
5. How mush horsepower does the fixture take to run?
Probably 25-20 HP according to the spring tension used on the fixture, and the oil used for testing.
6. Constant speed, or variable?
Either or... doesn't matter. If i want I can test at 5500RPM all day long.
Comments:
1. consider a Megasquirt setup for the FI.
If anything I'll be using a Kit Carlson EMS system on the fixture... He needs the run time on his system, and I like the simplicity.
2. Alright, I'll take the plunge. I think you might be wrong about the cost of an electric motor vs. gas powered, especially with gas prices so high.
I can test all day for about 7 dolllars in fuel.. The slave engine likes 87 octane even at 10:1 with the efficiency it has and head temps around 225 degrees with the fan drive ratio I have used (2.2:1)
A 30HP electric motor would cost much more than that to power and would not give us the consistency of heated oil, nor would it be "Aircooled ingenuity" Incase you haven't figured it out yet- I don't take the easy way out.
But it will not supply the contaminants and normal operating conditions of the shared oiling system.I can see the need for heating the oil - the test jig won't do it - but a sump tank with an electric submersible heater would do it.
Variable speeds would be a pain to implement, and yes, you would need to buy stuff instead of using the used stuff you have, but I'd be curious to see the fuel bills for a year of operation.
You should see my fuel bill for a year of Dyno tuning every engine for 8 hours plus... I don't skimp for any reason- period.. I'd rather pay my firiend down the road that owns a gas station than the Nazi bastards from the power company anyway!
I could have made this fixture electric, and dumped the fixture in a sump of oil for testing just like some of the other half assed rigs I have seen.... Their is alot of time in this fixture.
BTW, yes I do anticipate enemies, like I always do every time the truth comes out... Just like the cooling system tests... This is only going to be better though, since hundreds of people have lost hundreds of dollars because of junk lifters recently.