911 cooling shrouds

Riley73GT · Post by **Riley73GT** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:09 am

I want to install a 911 cooling kit from b.bergmann in my 1914cc. Anyone running this setup? all the type 1 people say stock is best, but i cant see how. The article in the january 2001 vw trnds is pretty convincing. But i'd like to hear you input.

riley

1973 gt beetle

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:21 am

You probably don' want to hear my input. Look at the bottom left corner of the home page at www.massivetype4.com for my general feelings explained in one sentence....

I have tested all but ONE system for the TI and TIV systems and have seen the comparative differences on the same engines on the dyno and installed in my personal car.

Since July of 2003 I have spent 200+ hours of my personal time and 24,000 bucks to gain my data.

The 911 system is not optimum for our engines, they lack surface area! The main reason the low pressure high volume axial fan on the 911 engine works so well is because the 911 engine HAS SUPERIOR COOLING CAPABILITY.

Your engine is not a 911, it was designed by VW to be cooled with a HIGH PRESSURE cooling system with a radial fan.

Either stay stock, or go here to see what I finally was able to beat a stock system with, after 8 months of trial and error

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/type1/dtm/index.htm

The 911 system creates the most UNEVEN cooling of any system we have tested. Some cylinders fry and some freeze. This is a nightmare for expansion rates.

I compare the 911 system to a dumb blonde on Friday night.... She might look good, but performance is marginal and she isn't worth the cost of that expensive dinner before the "test drive"......

Bigger isn't better and look kill- Proven....

In late 2005 I plan to do actually embark to make a 911 style system that works, and doesn't rob 20 HP at the same time........

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:24 am

Welcome to the ShopTalkForum!

THere is a *sticky* posted at the top of this forum, please read it.
There is also a SEARCH button up at the very TOP!

Please do a search and you can find that all systems HAVE been tested
and the 911 system was found to SUCK in the cooling dept, and suck a LOT of HP away fro mthe engine!

Again, welcome aboard!

Don

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:30 am

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:----------------
I compare the 911 system to a dumb blonde on Friday night.... She might look good, but performance is marginal and she isn't worth the cost of that expensive dinner before the "test drive"......
----------------------------
Jake

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Don

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:31 am

Thats my favorite way yet of getting that point across!

Riley73GT · Post by **Riley73GT** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:49 am

this is a type 1 engine, does the 911 kit work better for type 1's than type 4's? or does it just suck ?

Riley73GT · Post by **Riley73GT** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:05 pm

this is a type 1 engine, does the 911 kit work better for type 1's than type 4's? or does it just suck ?

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:27 pm

It is equally *sucky*, because of thedesign.

It was designed for a 6 cyl, not a 4 cyl......

Why don't you spend your $$$ on a Type 4, and get away from the
small block VW engine?

More torque, more longevity!
Type Is are *disposables*.....IMHO.

Don

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:28 pm

The 911 system had more UNEVEN temps on the TI than the TIV as a general statement. I tried 6 911 arrangements with 3 drive ratios each for the TI and 3 systems with 4 different drive ratios for the TIV.

The trends are the same. 1&3 run cool as a cucumber while 2&4 fry.....

The TI lost MORE HP with the 911 than the TIV though, proving that the smaller the engine the more restriction caused in the upper plenums and the more power being lost.

The TI and TIV doesn't have the cooling capability needed for the axial fan. The 911 does and it was engineered for it- period.

Until someone takes months of their life to develop a 911 system that works, people will continue to use the arrangement because it "looks better" or "It cools a 6 cylinder, so it has to cool a 4"....

I must make the statement that "results may vary" because as soon as you change heads, cylinders, and etc all the results sway. My testing was done on 4 different engines and all comparative data was attained without anything excpet an oil change after we baked the oil at 300 degrees a few times. Carbs and timing was not touched for 3 weeks on the TIV and 2 weeks on the TI. HP pulls were done 5+ times a day and leak down and compression checks were made between shroud changes to ensure that the engine was still a solid base for comparison. In the car these extremes were not held as tightly, but we did the best we could.

brianwheelies · Post by **brianwheelies** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:32 pm

Jake, do the 911 systems have any kind of plumbing to direct air to the right places or are they pretty much just a cover and the air blows to the back (1&3)?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:11 pm

Just a big open hole.

A 911 shroud does have vanes inside it, but with ALL the available 911 set ups for TI and TIV use the shroud is not large enough depth wise to allow anything to be added. The 911 engine is 10" longer so it does allow it.

vrsechslvr · Post by **vrsechslvr** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:14 pm

Very informative! Thanks!!!!!

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:31 pm

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote: A 911 shroud does have vanes inside it, but with ALL the available 911 set ups for TI and TIV use the shroud is not large enough depth wise to allow anything to be added. The 911 engine is 10" longer so it does allow it.

I think you just stated one of the main reasons why 1&3 are cooled (too) well and 2 & 4 not enough.
Since the 911 fan doesn't work on pressure differences like the type 1 fan set-up (as you found out and which drove you almost crazy

), it may be a lot easier to adapt the 911 fan set-up to cool more evenly

.

Greetings,
Walter

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:43 pm

Wally, You are right.... BUT on the 911 the cylinders sit much farther away from the fan, not directly under it. The air almost has to turn 90 sharp degrees to find its wy to them, especially #4. It not only is underneath the fan, but also on the left side away from the tangent of air.

I could make it work I am sure. BUT it probably would not be affordable to buy at all.

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:31 am

This airflow doesn't have to turn......

Will be testing it soon, real soon...

Don