turbo or not tu-rbo? that is the question!

marco the steem engine · Tue Jun 26, 2001 8:34 am

I wanted to supercharge my 2.1 waterboxer but it looks like the ultimate power comes from turbos.
Is there such a turbo that you can run with high compresion and big cam? as my waterboxer is running 10.5-1 comp and 308deg/520thou cam.
like a low presure turbo!
as i don't want to split the bottom end untill it blow's up!
fueling and advance are no problem as im running EFI
I would still like to run pump gas.(97oct)
I'v got 170bhp I would like 220-270
can anybody help? advice?

Marco Mansi...

bad62bug · Post by **bad62bug** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by marco the steem engine:
I wanted to supercharge my 2.1 waterboxer but it looks like the ultimate power comes from turbos.
Is there such a turbo that you can run with high compresion and big cam? as my waterboxer is running 10.5-1 comp and 308deg/520thou cam.
like a low presure turbo!
as i don't want to split the bottom end untill it blow's up!
fueling and advance are no problem as im running EFI
I would still like to run pump gas.(97oct)
I'v got 170bhp I would like 220-270
can anybody help? advice?

Marco Mansi...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

take a look at this site some good info. http://www.sdsefi.com/techocta.htm

Derrick from NC · Post by **Derrick from NC** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:55 pm

Steve,
How many motors projects do you have going on?
You've got a couple type1's, a big typeIV, and now a waterboxer too. Next thing you will be installing a turbo subaru.

Steve Arndt · Post by **Steve Arndt** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 1:32 pm

Derrick,

I actually have a turn key EJ22 Suby in my storage bus

I'm sticking to VWs for now.
I have the 2599 project, the the 2276 for my baja, the wasser, and I'm playing with bare wasser cases to the oxy tricks. My father calls it Hysterectomies on Dinosaurs because I spend so much time with ancient engine stuff when I could be on the edge with something more modern. I love it though!

Anyway Marco,
Your high compression engine normally would not like boost at all, however, the big cam you have would allow you to run mild boost with it and be very happy I believe. Up to 10 PSI is my guess with your proper engine management. Run it and let us know!

How do you lower the compression in your wasser if you end up needing to? If you have tricks, I would like to use them to add stroke yet stay water cooled!

[This message has been edited by Steve Arndt (edited 06-26-2001).]

Steve Arndt · Post by **Steve Arndt** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 11:41 pm

There are a lot of myths out there and a lot of people that preach and have no real experience. I have no experience here.
What I do know is people are often happy when they take an otherwise relatively high compression NA motor and boost it. It offers the best bottom end punch yet yet extra top end power as well. I say put a T-03 on your 2.1 and run it!! I just scored a turn key 1.9 wasser. I'm going to put a counterweighted DMS 76 crank in it, the 2.1 pistons for proper deck height, and build a turbo header and run a T03 on it!
Run it!
Steve

[This message has been edited by Steve Arndt (edited 06-26-2001).]

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 4:28 am

Hi
Im fitting the turbo to Wasserboxer now, should be going next week, just getting over 2 broken ribs. I bought 9.0:1 pistons and had the combustion chamber in the piston deepened to lower the comp down to 8.00:1 Marco with intercooling and very mild boost you should be able to run a turbo, and as Steve said it will be strong down low. The only basic difference between the 10.5:1 motor and the 9.00:1 motor is pistons. Many late model factory turbo cars run high comp and low boost. A good bit of reading is Corky Bells, Maximum Boost, he has some pretty intersting things to say about turbo V supercharge. Go for it!
Regards Steve C

Steve Arndt · Post by **Steve Arndt** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:12 am

Compression ratio and turbo. http://www.autospeed.com/cgi-bin/autosp ... rd=3833717

Miker76 · Post by **Miker76** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 9:42 pm

The problem with high compression is heat and adding more heat from a turbo's compressed air, can be disasterous. The key here is to retard the timing slightly, but above all, you MUST use a very efficient turbo, like a t04b, which will not create too much heat due to it's high flow, and an efficcient intercooler. Do everything you can to decrease the charge air temps and you will be able to get away with 8 psi, which theoretically should give you a 45-50% gain in power.
Efficciency is the key.
Mike

marco the steem engine · Thu Jun 28, 2001 3:55 am

thanks for the advice,
to help the proces of cooling would water injection be good for this?
instead of installing a turbo to get the power increase i need would a two stage NOS be a better idea?

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:00 am

Hi
Just thought I would let you know that you can buy big valve heads etc for the Wasserboxer here http://www.fastgermanauto.com/
Regards Steve C

57 Magnacharger · Post by **57 Magnacharger** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 3:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Steve C:
Hi
A good bit of reading is Corky Bells, Maximum Boost, he has some pretty intersting things to say about turbo V supercharge. Go for it! -------------------
Regards Steve C<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Steve what do you remember that "Corky" has to say about Supercharging?
I want to Supercharge my 57, 1916 ,40 ci,
approx 6 lbs.
regards Glenn , thanks for
the email.

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by 57 Magnacharger:
 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve C:
Hi
A good bit of reading is Corky Bells, Maximum Boost, he has some pretty intersting things to say about turbo V supercharge. Go for it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi
Aplogies to Corky Bell, buy his book and read the rest of what this wise man has to say. This is part of his introduction to turbocharging.
Regards Steve C

AN ENGINEERING LOOK AT THE BASIC

The power-enhancing capability of the turbocharger has been most thoroughly demonstrated by the Grand Prix racing cars of the 1977 to 1988 era of Formula 1.

The comparison of the power output of a top fuel dragster with that of a Formula 1 race car will establish the turbo's credentials. Current output of top fuel cars with 500 cid (cubic inch displacement) engines is suggested to be in the 5000-6000 bhp range, which calculates to around 10 bhp per cid. These numbers are not favorable compared to the 1300-1400 bhp, 90 cid qualifying engines of the 1987 Formula 1 cars. These outputs represent 14 to 15 bhp per cubic inch. That the champion is crowned is obvious even to casual observers. However, for the potential street turbo user, large questions remain. Answers to these questions will indicate why turbocharging is equally useful to the fast car enthusiast who relies on his car for daily commuting, to the racer, and even to the outer fringe of street power freaks.

Why does the turbo produce more power than other forms of enhancement?

The power output potential of any supercharger is measured by the amount of airflow the device creates after factoring out the power required to drive it and the extent to which it heats up the air while creating the flow and pressure. While it might appear that the turbo does not drain power from the engine, since the exhaust energy is lost anyway, this is far from correct. Heat and airflow drive the turbine. When air is forced through the turbine section of a turbo, reduced flow areas inherent in the design create back pressure. This causes a small loss in power that would not occur if the turbo had a power source other than the engine into which it is pumping. The power loss increases as the size of the turbo decreases, because the decreased size creates greater back pressure. Conversely, larger turbos create much less back pressure and therefore less power loss. The power loss inherent in a turbocharged engine is substantially less than the loss incurred by driving a supercharger with a belt or by some other means.

That an air pump always heats air it compresses is a thermodynamic fact with which we are stuck. Different kinds of air pumps heat air different amounts for the same flow rates and pressure ratios. These differences are due largely to the different efficiencies of various types of pumps. The classic Roots-type supercharger usually rates efficiencies of about 50%, whereas the turbo runs efficiencies in the mid 70s. The higher the efficiency, the less the heating effect on the air. Efficiency is of paramount importance to the real power enthusiast, since heat in the intake charge is the enemy of performance. The density of an intake charge is less as the temperature rises; thus, an engine actually consumes less air at the higher temperature, even if the pressures are the same. A second problem is that higher temperatures promote detonation of the air/fuel mixture. Engines cannot withstand the thermal and pressure shocks of detonation for more than very short periods.

max, Der Bahnstormerz · Sat Jun 30, 2001 7:02 am

Hey Marco, loose the two tonnes of ICE, that'll make yur wagen faster without spending a penny

Tomj · Post by **Tomj** » Sun Jul 01, 2001 6:51 am

He needs the ICE for the intercooler I thought...lol