The 3 Liter goes on a diet, but gets stronger!

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:51 am

Many, Many times I have stated that engine size doesn't necessarily dictate power and I'm about to prove that, again.

The 3 Liter is dropping a couple of hundred ccs and going from an 86 stroke crank, down to 80mm. The bore size will remain the same as will the flow characteristics of the cylinder heads from the previous 3 liter version.

As a 3 Liter the engine was an awesome driver, more than capable of being a total daily driver with it's super cool temps and unreal power band. The HP of the engine was limited by the small carbs (48 dells) and the non optimized camshaft used along with the old school Berg 2" header. The engine made 235HP and did it totally reliably, but those HP numbers simply were not enough and since no one appreciates torque the way an engine builder does I decided it was time to move the RPM range up a bit and increasing the peak numbers a tad. The engine made so much torque that it all could not be used and the RPM range was detrimentally effected so this new combo may be just as easy to drive, run just as cool but make bigger horsepower and unfortunately HP is all some people understand!

So here are the new specs.
Stroke -80mm (RAT/DPR crank wedgemeted)
Bore- 105.07mm
Rods- 5.4" Crower Titanium
CR -10:1
Heads- RAT, Billet prototypes 52mm Intake, 41mm exhaust
Cam- RAT 9880 mod(new design)
exhaust- RAT/ A-1 2" primaries with 3" Magnaflow muff
Cooling - Standard DTM modified for Billet heads
Induction- Autronic EFI with 52mm Jenvey Throttle bodies

The hypothesis is the new combo will provide power to 7,200 RPM where the old combo made peak power at only 5, 000 RPM. I have recently invested in more advanced engine simulation software and I have modeled this engine to 260HP if the engine can continue making power to 7,000 RPM, hence the reduction in displacement.

I have retained the previous combination and all the parts of that combination as well as the data to one day further optimize the engine again as a 3 liter.

I will begin assembly of this 2.8 liter version tonight and should be done with the assembly in a couple of weeks with results closely following the Hot VWs visit to my shop, all just in time for the BKC dyno day where I'll unveil the new beast and share what it makes.

I'll be retaining the dyno results that I gather here until after the BKC dyno day.

I do plan on doing more data acquisition with this engine as the 2.8Liter and putting even more miles on it than I did the 3 Liter version, since I now have a 50 minute drive to and from work every day! Also the new house is only a few minutes from the Atlanta Dragway so this new combo will be getting more "drag time" than in the past. It's my goal to get this engine and the Bluebonic Plague in the Cal- Look Top 10, just for the hell of it!

BTW- Look for this 2.8L version to become a "Super Hero" member of my engine program available for purchase in 2007!

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:18 am

The 3.OOOHH is definitely a beast. I hope the numbers work out to be bigger than that. There is definitely potential there for it.

What I cannot wait is for the rebirth of the 3.0 in the BlueB and the Drag day, with better induction and a better header.

E

samcat · Post by **samcat** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:19 am

Sounds like fun!

Image that combined with a turbo setup

Cya,
Sam C

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:30 am

Ephry,
It is my belief that the engine will make MORE power as a 2.8 than as a 3 liter, even with the 3 liter more optimized.

At 3 lites we have to seriously limit the camshaft lift just to get the cam to FIT... This limits the cylinder head flow drastically as we lose up to .200 lift because of the interferance issues.

This is a prime example of when displacement gets in the way of performance and it's another reason why I always say "It's all in the combo!"

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:20 am

I remember reading that on one of your posts on it. I do have to say, all that power and torque with the limited RPM is still freaking amazing!

Well, if the formula is true, then torque x RPM will definitely equal more HP for sure.

Keep us posted man! And thank you for letting us enjoy the information.

Hmmm, I wonder if this means that in the future you will also have a Massive Type 4 block with more of a drop between crank center mains and cam center mains, to allow for more stroke and cam sizes.

E

HotStreetVw · Post by **HotStreetVw** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:27 am

Jake. Couldnt you machine a new set of ratio rockers? Something like 1.6:1? Make up for the lift lost at the cam.

Where there any other problems with the 86 stroke beside clearence and the small cam?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:51 am

No other down falls to the stroke..
Sure we could use a ratio rocker to attain more lift, BUT I don't fancy rockers that don't supply needed oil to the valve guides at street RPM. The rockers that VW gave us are wonderful units that are very strong and they self oil. If I were going for an engine that was only about power I certainly would not care and would take the easy way out with the ratio rocker, but life here is not about living 1/4 mile at a time!

Also a ratio rocker INCREASES the stress the entire valve train feels down stream and that hurts the lifter bores...
Bigger is not better....

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:05 am

Good points. Why did you have to quote the Fast and the Curious Jake? lol

Ephry

Santas Brother · Post by **Santas Brother** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:30 pm

How quick do you have to go to make the Cal-Look Top 10 ?

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:
It's my goal to get this engine and the Bluebonic Plague in the Cal- Look Top 10, just for the hell of it!

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:38 pm

Mid 12s

Should be no problem, it would have done it with the old combo if I would have tried.

Can Drive Soon · Post by **Can Drive Soon** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:31 pm

No one appreciates torque the way an engine builder does.

I would rather have a low revving thunder then a screemer...
With a ton of torque you can run a set of higher gears and with all that torque you will go through them fast instead of racing to 6-9 grand...

I love th sound of my uncle's chevy...

vujade · Post by **vujade** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:40 pm

The Cal Look Top 10 is for Turbo/Nitrous Motors
The Cal Look Top 20 is for NA Motors

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:58 pm

Excuse me, I meant to exclaim that I am shooting to get to the top 10 of "The Top 20" since the engine is N/A...

It has become point blankly clear that the only thing thats going to turn heads around on their sockets and gt more people TIV enthused is a serious peak HP number and a serious presence at the drag strip, thats exactly what this combo will be doing, all while retaining it's streetability as a full time daily driver. With my new drive to work each day getting 30K miles on the engine in one year all while the data logger records the specifics will not be an issue.

I'm not very good at drag racing myself, the whole concept seems pretty dumb to me, so I will spend most of my time leaqring against V-8s before doing any VW specific events.

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:29 pm

This driving will be done through backroads with no cops and plenty of full throttle driving? or city/hwy driving Jake?

E

HotStreetVw · Post by **HotStreetVw** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:34 pm

Jake. Whats the stock ratio(rocker) for a type 4? I didnt know they suffered from lifter bore failures. Is it not something sleeving the bores could handle?

I think its a great goal to get into the top 10, but dont expect it to get many guys excited about the t4. I bet your engine has cost a fortune, where as you could get into the top10 for about 10k with a t1.

Dont take this negatively, because you build some really cool engines. But the bottom line is the price. There just to expensive. The way to get more people excited, is to show them whats possible, and make it afforable.

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:Excuse me, I meant to exclaim that I am shooting to get to the top 10 of "The Top 20" since the engine is N/A...

It has become point blankly clear that the only thing thats going to turn heads around on their sockets and gt more people TIV enthused is a serious peak HP number and a serious presence at the drag strip, thats exactly what this combo will be doing, all while retaining it's streetability as a full time daily driver. With my new drive to work each day getting 30K miles on the engine in one year all while the data logger records the specifics will not be an issue.

I'm not very good at drag racing myself, the whole concept seems pretty dumb to me, so I will spend most of my time leaqring against V-8s before doing any VW specific events.

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The 3 Liter goes on a diet, but gets stronger!

The 3 Liter goes on a diet, but gets stronger!

Re: The 3 Liter goes on a diet, but gets stronger!