Best master cylinder?

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:59 pm

I plan to replace the one in my 73 Ghia.

For stock, there is German or Brazilian. I have never been one to buy German just because its "German" as I figure some parts are better German and some don't matter.

With the latter year Ghia, the MC has these little ports in the system which act as residual pressure valves. Do both German and Brazilian have this feature? (see Bently manual if unfamiliar with this)

Is there any bolt on upgrade from another car that is better than stock? It would be nice to have something more like power brakes. Less pressure but more stopping power.

Thanks
Ron

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:07 pm

A bump.. and another question (since no one is answering the first LOL)

How about the stainless steel lines with the teflon tubing inside? Does anyone have any experience with those?

Thanks
Ron

seahag · Post by **seahag** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:36 pm

Much firmer pedal pressure with stainless lines. :wink:

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:53 pm

Bumpity bump.

Well, I figure I will go with German. I think anything that is Machined will probably be better German. John C recomends the German MC if you look at his site. I will go with the Stainless steel lines also. Aircooled.net has them for about twice the price as CB, but they are DOT approved, and if I end up in the hospital due to brake failure, at least I'll know I did all I could rather than laying in bed thinking I had cheaped out. Or worse yet, a kid crossing the street. Brakes are important.

I can also ad some more stopping power to the rear by replacing the wheel cylinders with the Super Stoppers or T3 Cylinders, and I can go to "Super Stopper" shoes. My question is now, How far can you go with the rears befor creating an unsafe front /rear bias? The big deal about rear brakes seems to have originated with the Cal look and the skinny front tires that goes with it. So, on a ghia with front discs, and the same tires all around, how much bias is there to play with before you need to worry about locking up the rear before the front. (This is not something I wish to experiment with, LOL)

Thanks
Ron

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:38 pm

Hey Plaster, I did alot of looking on line as well as searching this forum and have not found much for your specific questions. I did though fine that the pagid pads at AC.net are only available for the vanagon. The state of the art in friction material now seems to be ceramic with copper. The copper is soft to protect drums and rotors, and the ceramic is better than metalic for dust, fade, initial bite, and wear. Sources for ceramic shoes are scarce, but of all places JC Whittney has them. The brand is "Satisfied" they are called Pro tech.

Ron

apokrandt · Post by **apokrandt** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:35 am

Do you normally talk to yourself?

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:56 am

Only when no one is around.

Ron

Post by **Marc** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:37 am

Type III wheel cylinders won't fit (too long, wrong offset) - but you can replace the 17.46mm rears with 22.05mm `65-up Beetle fronts. My son did this on his `77 bug, along with semi-met linings at the forward position and organics at the back. Up front he has disks with `66-`71 III calipers & stock pads (slightly larger than stock single-pin `Ghia) and the front/rear bias is fine IMO. We figured if that were a problem we could upgrade the front pads, but didn't find it necessary.
Early master cylinders used discrete residual pressure check valves which screwed into the M/C (different thread than the brakelines so they can't be used with late M/Cs, and early M/Cs can't be used without them - although they can be gutted and used strictly as a thread adapter). The resid valves for drum brakes hold too much line pressure for use with disks, causing drag and accelerated pad wear - I found that out the hard way years ago when I replaced the original single-circuit M/C in my Euro disk-brake `67 bug with a `68 bug dual-circuit M/C with resid valves). The 113 611 015BD M/C being sold as a universal replacement (for all dual-circuit Std Beetle/Ghia/Thing) has restriction drillings rather than resid valves so it will work with any type of brakes.
Time was there was a big difference in quality between German & Brazilian hydraulic components, but my experience in the last five years or so with German has been disappointing. I still think they're better than Brazilian, but maybe not enough so anymore to justify paying twice as much for them.

helowrench · Post by **helowrench** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:40 pm

Plastermaster, I have been following this thread but I have had to remain silent due to lack of knowledge. I had suspected that the front SB wheel cyl's would work but did not have any confirmation until Marc chimed in today.
Yes from previous experience the ss braid lines are a worthwhile upgrade, for better feel.
I saw that you were following the other thread on performance rear shoes.

i have the standard disks on the front with the standard calipers and standard rubber lines and the standard pads, I have 185 falken ziex tires up front and
standard 165 in back and can still lock up the front from time to time, so it appears to be more an issue of traction rather than of braking power.
I believe that if you are choosy with the wheel cylinders that you would be able to choose 17.46/19.05/and 22.05 mm wheel cylinders and with a parking lot you could find which wheel cylinder gives the proper balance for the traction that you have available.
Fortunately wheel cylinders are cheap and relatively easy (just messy)
JMHO
Rob
Rob

helowrench · Post by **helowrench** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:00 pm

i am still researching this so bear with the questions.

stock 17.46mm
924 rear 19.05mm ( not a confirmed fit yet)
What about 65-67 19.5mm?
beetle front 22.05mm will fit
super front 23.8mm (not a confirmed fit yet)

what about organic vs ceramic pads with any of these in combo. i believe that you could probably get the rears to any point of braking that you desire.
BTW bug/ghia rear shoes are interchangeable with 924's and several compounds of upgraded pads are available for the 924.

marc, were there any drawbacks to using a mix of pads within each drum, and what were the advatages.

Rob

Post by **Marc** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:25 pm

The 22.05 Beetle front and 17.46 rear have the same offset so will interchange. The 19.05 VW have a different offset and won't fit right on the `68-up rear backing plate. The Super front (or Type III rear) are too long, won't fit between the shoes (although I suppose you could grind the shoe frames down to fit them IF they have the correct offset, I've never tried).
Dunno about the 924, they may have the correct offset which'd give you a 19.05 chioice.

VWs don't have "Primary" and "Secondary" shoe positions/lining composition like most cars, but you'll observe that the self-energizing effect caused by forward drum rotation will invariably wear out the forward shoe first on the rears and the top shoe first on Standard Beetle fronts. Using a "harder" lining in these positions helps to equalize the wear. Metallic linings don't work as well when cold as they do when warm, and the organic shoes help cover for them until they warm up.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:00 pm

Many thanks to Apokrandt for bringing this thread to life. You must have the magic touch.

I got my idea about the T3 wheel cylinders from Aircooled.net. IIRC it was part of the technical articles, or else suggested under the product info for wheel cylinders. Maybe I misunderstood though. It looks like there are a few other options though that Marc pointed out. I guess with a larger wheel cylinder, brake adjustment is more critical to prevent too much pedal travel.

I have the later U pin Girling calipers. Can anyone tell me if these are larger than the single and 2 pin ATEs that were used up to 73. I believe I read somewhere that they had slightly larger pads

My MC has the restriction drillings. How do these work? It seems to me that in a short amount of time the pressure in the hydraulics is going to equalize. The drilling is not that small either. I assume they do not keep pressure in the line but rather bleed it off to create proper bias...but then where would it bleed to?

I searched a bit about the stainless steel lines and it seems about 50/50 for and against from 1st hand exprience.

Thanks guys for the input

Ron

Post by **Marc** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:02 am

About all the restriction drillings do is make for a higher pedal on the second pump; as you say, the pressure across the restriction equalizes in short order when you aren't using the brakes. Residual pressure check valves actually keep a slight pressure applied at the wheel cylinder/caliper at all times, which helps wheel cylinders seal but can cause calipers to drag since they have no return springs to resist the pressure. You can buy aftermarket resid valves and place them in the lines - many folks do after they discover their pedal is too low/soft after installing rear disk brakes - but it's tricky finding just the right pressure that'll show benefit without causing drag.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:10 am

Designing a brake system that depends on pumping seems rediculous. I wonder why they switched.

It might be a good idea to put a resudal pressure valve for the rear drum brakes since they do have springs.

Ron